Sub-Saharan DLC

[DynasticPlanet5]

@Julix3748

Kanembu instead of the Congo,

Why not eventually both

[Zaphiron01]

Fair enough I suppose, but it should be said that Sub-Sahara is literally just “South of the Sahara”. What they’re looking for is more Central Africa related, to which I think could be an entire dlc on its own.

The Kongolese, the Swahili, and the Shona are all good picks for that region, and I agree with Fanta Morgana that there needs to be a shakeup of the tech trees after you get to that point in Africa because of the Tsetse.

[smiki5five]

@Julix3748

The Yoruba should get the Gbeto instead of the Malians since they are actually Fon people of modern day Benin

They belong to the same language family but are distinct nations. I guess you could umbrella all Volta-Niger language speakers as “Beninese” (my sincere apologies to all Yorubas and Igbos).

[Julix3748]

@smiki5five

They belong to the same language family but are distinct nations. I guess you could umbrella all Volta-Niger language speakers as “Beninese” (my sincere apologies to all Yorubas and Igbos).

I know, but if the main inspiration of the Yoruba is the Oyo Empire they would be included

Kinda how the Burgundians get Flemish militia because the Flemish were under their control

I know it’s not perfect, but its better than the completely unrelated Malians to get them, I don’t think a Fon civ is warranted

[VonBicyclestein]

@Julix3748

I know, but if the main inspiration of the Yoruba is the Oyo Empire they would be included

Kinda how the Burgundians get Flemish militia because the Flemish were under their control

Being Flemish myself, I can testify we still occasionally refer to ourselves in certain contexts as Burgundians, even though Burgundy itself is considered a foreign place.

Benin empire (East of the Yoruba, not to be mistaken for the later Benin/Dahomey to the West) was mostly populated with Edo people, but there was a lot of influence from Yoruba culture, e.g. the spiritual heart of the world was considered to be Ile-Ife in Yorubaland. Yoruba kosmology, commonly mistakenly named voodoo, had a huge impact on the Fon people too. Tribalism as we know it today has been reinforced heavily by colonialism, so medieval Africans probably didn’t pigeonhole themselves that much into one distinct ethnicity.

I think using the Yoruba as an umbrella for Oyo, Benin and Fon should be acceptable.

[Apocalypso4826]

@Julix3748

The Yoruba should get the Gbeto instead of the Malians since they are actually Fon people of modern day Benin (Gbeto literally means huntress in the Fon language), who at one point were part of the Oyo Empire

I came up with a Yoruba concept today, and I decided to make the UU the Eso, a cavalry unit, instead of the Gbeto. Not even sure what the Malians would get in place of the Gbeto.

@VonBicyclestein

I think using the Yoruba as an umbrella for Oyo, Benin and Fon should be acceptable.

I originally thought of using the Great Benin Moat as the Yoruba Wonder, but decided against it because the Benin Kingdom was Edo, not Yoruba, even if the ruling class was Yoruba. It just didn’t feel appropriate. I went with the Alaafin’s Palace in Old Oyo instead.

If anything, the Benin Moat can be the inspiration for the Yoruba Castle.

[WhiteMagick4]

Benin, Zimbabwe, Congo, Swahili polities.

[VonBicyclestein]

@Apocalypso4826

I came up with a Yoruba concept today, and I decided to make the UU the Eso, a cavalry unit, instead of the Gbeto. Not even sure what the Malians would get in place of the Gbeto.

Making the UU a cavalry unit for the Yoruba is a great idea! Just like the Mapuche, they could have acces to horses this way, but not to stables. It would reflect the strong cavalry of the Oyo empire, but also that these horses were imported from the North and the fact that they couldn’t be used in many areas of the empire.

[Apocalypso4826]

@VonBicyclestein

Making the UU a cavalry unit for the Yoruba is a great idea! Just like the Mapuche, they could have acces to horses this way, but not to stables.

No, I don’t like that idea. Cavalry was an essential part of the Oyo Empire, and there were many different types within the empire. Access to stables is fine.

[Julix3748]

@Apocalypso4826

No, I don’t like that idea. Cavalry was an essential part of the Oyo Empire, and there were many different types within the empire. Access to stables is fine.

Then maybe they can have the Gbeto at the castle and some kind of unique cav at the stable, maybe a scout line replacement since knight replacements are kinda overdone at this point

I guess you can put the Gbeto in the barracks instead, maybe locked behind a UT, maybe called “Fon Regiment” or something

Anyway, the Gbeto are a weird unit, they are kinda a mishmash of a lot of west and central African stuff, they are based on Dahomey Amazons (Fon people from modern day Benin), they use Kpinga weapons from the Azande people of the Congo (at least in the current patch, previously they were slightly more accurate) and they are given to the Malians

For context this is like having a Nordic Longboat with a Byzantine Greek fire cannon and giving it to the Portuguese, and people complain about the Woad Raider being out of place lmao

[Apocalypso4826]

@Julix3748

Then maybe they can have the Gbeto at the castle and some kind of unique cav at the stable, maybe a scout line replacement since knight replacements are kinda overdone at this point

I don’t like that idea either. What’s wrong with a more traditional-style civ?

[Akoskaaa10]

I don’t get the appeal of Yoruba, they were destroyed in the Middle Ages by the Nupe Kingdom. They became relevant again in aoe3’s timeframe.

I’d add Kanembu, Nubians, Somalis, Songhai, Hausa, Soninke, Benin, Kongolese, Swahilis and Shonas first.

[DynasticPlanet5]

@Akoskaaa10

don’t get the appeal of Yoruba,

To me there isn’t really a historical appeal like for Songhai. Instead it’s more a gameplay one of blending the more desert playstyle with Subsahara sort like how Vietnamese mix SE Asian with East Asian

[smiki5five]

@Akoskaaa10

I don’t get the appeal of Yoruba, they were destroyed in the Middle Ages by the Nupe Kingdom. They became relevant again in aoe3’s timeframe.

I think the idea is to make one umbrella for all Volta-Niger speaking kingdoms, the naming is an issue though. Beninese, Nigerians?

[VonBicyclestein]

@Akoskaaa10

I don’t get the appeal of Yoruba

Mostly because they were a cultural powerhouse:

• Highest skilled craftsmen of the wide region (bronze working, sculpting, glass-making,…) => economic bonus

• Spirituality (Yoruba cosmology, which has become a world religion today, as it has strongly influenced candomblé (Brasil), winti (Suriname), santería (Cuba), fá (West-Africa and the Americas), orisha-worship and vodou. Even gospel and evangelical church practices have roots in Yoruba religion).
  => in AoE2 this could translate well into an interesting monk bonus

Besides that, the Yoruba have always been numerous and hence of significant importance => villager bonus

[MatM1996]

@DynasticPlanet5

The Yoruba do have cavalry. Albeit it was usually uncommon so likely you could have a civ that can’t afford to use lighter cavalry or even have access to scouts but yes to knights and possibly even cav archers and camels as they aren’t as susceptible to tsetses

@VonBicyclestein

It is true that the Oyo empire had a strong cavalry. But they could only be used in the northern part of their empire, and not in the southern jungles and mangroves. They mostly got their horses from Northern states like Kano.

It would be fun to let them have horses, but with certain restrictions. Any suggestions?

The Yoruba did not commonly have camels, though…

@VonBicyclestein

Making the UU a cavalry unit for the Yoruba is a great idea! Just like the Mapuche, they could have acces to horses this way, but not to stables. It would reflect the strong cavalry of the Oyo empire, but also that these horses were imported from the North and the fact that they couldn’t be used in many areas of the empire.

Yes, I agree…The Yoruba Legionary and the Yoruba Rider would be good UUs…

@ArrangedHeart77

Africa is next, I can feel it.

Scandinavia and Mesoamerica next, in that order please!

Yes, we already had North Africa (Berbers, Malians and Ethiopians), now we’ll have South Africa (Kongo, Shona and Somalians to fight against Ethiopians)…

@Akoskaaa10

I don’t get the appeal of Yoruba, they were destroyed in the Middle Ages by the Nupe Kingdom. They became relevant again in aoe3’s timeframe.

I’d add Kanembu, Nubians, Somalis, Songhai, Hausa, Soninke, Benin, Kongolese, Swahilis and Shonas first.

Yes, I agree, first let’s look at more medieval civilizations and then we’ll see the larger empires after the 1500s…

@DynasticPlanet5

To me there isn’t really a historical appeal like for Songhai. Instead it’s more a gameplay one of blending the more desert playstyle with Subsahara sort like how Vietnamese mix SE Asian with East Asian

Yes, in AoE3 they wanted to include the Songhai, but since they didn’t last long they just left them as an alliance with the Hausa…in AoE 4 they’ll probably be a Mali variant in the next variant DLC…

@VonBicyclestein

Mostly because they were a cultural powerhouse:

• Highest skilled craftsmen of the wide region (bronze working, sculpting, glass-making,…) => economic bonus
• Spirituality (Yoruba cosmology, which has become a world religion today, as it has strongly influenced candomblé (Brasil), winti (Suriname), santería (Cuba), fá (West-Africa and the Americas), orisha-worship and vodou. Even gospel and evangelical church practices have roots in Yoruba religion).
  => in AoE2 this could translate well into an interesting monk bonus

Besides that, the Yoruba have always been numerous and hence of significant importance => villager bonus

Yes, in AoM we’ll likely see the Yoruba as a new pantheon encompassing all of West Africa (Mali Empire, Oyo Empire, Hausa, Ife Empire)… North Africa would be left for a Punic pantheon (although it’s said that the Libyans worshipped Baal Hamon and the Egyptian gods, and the Berbers worshipped Kronos (aka Atlanteans) and the Greek gods…

[Julix3748]

I just want to give them Gbeto, I don’t like it being with the Malians

[Julix3748]

The Songhai and Soninke kinda overlap a lot with the Malians, at least geographically, I’m not a fan of including them instead of other civilizations

Hausa and Benin are alternatives of the Yoruba for a gulf of guinea representation, I just feel like the Yoruba are some of the more recognizable people of the area, also they weren’t wiped out in the middle ages, the Ife Empire lasted from 1100 to 1420

[DynasticPlanet5]

@Julix3748

The Songhai and Soninke kinda overlap a lot with the Malians

There’s less geographical overlap compared to Franks and Burgundians or most of the German tribes who squabbled like Goths being in Germany and Spain

[Julix3748]

I know, but considering we probably won’t get as many African civs as European ones, I’d go for some geographical variety, at least at first