# \[Suggestion Balance\] Cumans Double TC BOOM is too strong, need nerf **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420 "2020-10-18T15:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RoomOfTheEvil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/roomoftheevil/32/29255_2.png) [@RoomOfTheEvil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/RoomOfTheEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/86 "2020-10-22T22:05:45Z")
The thing why the comparison on elo isn’t that effective is because that it depends on what elo i am right now, right? For example, i might get to 1400 if i am 1200 or get to 1200 if i am 900 or get only 1900 if i am 1800 because then there is a vast skill difference that won’t help me if the civ isn’t completely broken ( for example steppe lancer case or when you could research multiple techs). Or the increase might be marginally low if, for example, i don’t have sufficient multi tasking ability. Lets consider an already nominated strat: hoang rush. Can you effectively pull it off everytime? No, but it will increase a consider amount of elo, in the same case as i wrote. Is this strat too strong? It might be for hoang because it allows him to play on high level and win even against some of the best that he couldn’t hope to match with a normal play but will it be strong for me too? No obviously, i lack too much skill. ---
**Author:** ![VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/violettexas3273/32/60836_2.png) [@VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/VioletTexas3273)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/87 "2020-10-22T22:48:57Z")
Lol. 🤣 😂 😅 The highest rank player right now on AOE2 DE has a rating of 2452 which is Hera, farm from 2700. Stop embarrassing yourself. ![image](https://cdn.ageofempires.com/aoe-forums/original/3X/5/1/5133fb8692500433e153ad05282b65a5af38e0eb.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cheshirewig3203/32/76099_2.png) [@CheshireWig3203](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CheshireWig3203)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/88 "2020-10-22T22:51:04Z")
You should stop embarassing yourself by understanding irony. ---
**Author:** ![FurtherLime7936](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/furtherlime7936/32/113417_2.png) [@FurtherLime7936](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/FurtherLime7936)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/89 "2020-10-22T22:53:12Z")
Well at that ELO rank is where all of those people gives their input for balance in the FE discord. Would be crazy if the discord link gets leaked and everyone enter here ---
**Author:** ![VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/violettexas3273/32/60836_2.png) [@VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/VioletTexas3273)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/90 "2020-10-22T23:03:28Z")
Ok, so you admit you cannot pull it off, and call out other people who cannot pull it off, yet you still ask for a nerf? Elo isn’t perfect, as demonstrated in yet another SotL video here: [![](https://static.ageofempires.com/aoe-forums/original/3X/4/0/40b9998aa24df9d9f898a8fbd9dd34fb34679295.jpeg "How Elo Ratings Are Calculated") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTaAWtuLHuo) Yet, it is very commonly used in any sort of online matchmaking system to assess player’s skills. It is all about probability, and higher rank player can lose to another player who’s lower rank than his/her. ---
**Author:** ![VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/violettexas3273/32/60836_2.png) [@VioletTexas3273](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/VioletTexas3273)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/91 "2020-10-22T23:05:49Z")
Better not get that link leaked lol. 🤣 > [@CheshireWig3203](#): > > You should stop embarassing yourself by understanding irony. Not everyone realise that is a joke, and there’s no shame on that. It’s the same as admitting I’m not good at something. ---
**Author:** ![CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cactussteak2171/32/29684_2.png) [@CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CactusSteak2171)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/92 "2020-10-22T23:24:35Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > positions and certain maps will allow the cuman player to boom during 20 minutes and get an unfair advantage, that only 4 tcs boom scenario can counter, which outside boom maps is uncommon. Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t the maps where the Cuman can get this 20 min boom this easily the same maps where the enemy can 4 tc boom? > [@RoomOfTheEvil](#): > > that Goth have no bonus for it They def don’t get bulkier villagers for free right? > [@RoomOfTheEvil](#): > > Hoang rush is used but 99% of you would say it was a trash strategy before it actually beat pros. How far did Hoang go in KoTD3 qualifiers already? > [@RoomOfTheEvil](#): > > My nerf to the tatar cav archer is one of the case. Their cav archer are op regarding other cav archer and their counters in hills Breaking news: bonuses are made to make a unit stronger than the generic version. So yeah, tatars cav archers are “OP regarding other cav archers” (and as far as I know tatars CA are still countered by siege and skirms even when on a hill) ---
**Author:** ![WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/woodsiercorn696/32/29332_2.png) [@WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WoodsierCorn696)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/93 "2020-10-23T05:44:21Z")
> [@WoodsierCorn696](#): > > Again: Then give me the correct graphics please and point out where the math is off. I am glad to learn from you. I havent seen any proof from your side at all. Only thing i see is that you call number of vills that are just in line with the graph, given your own assumptions. So please enlight me. > > Can you also explain how to counter some big push in early castle age from the enemy when playing as Cumans? Seems like you complete neglict military in your build. So when your enemy is in castle age and starts his push, it seems like you dont have any military at all. Making military would also delay your own castle age, which means you have to fight with feudal army against castle age army for a bit longer. I havent seen your explanation for how to defend against such push at all. When will these questions finally get answered? Seems like both questions got ignored. > [@VioletTexas3273](#): > > Ok, so you admit you cannot pull it off, and call out other people who cannot pull it off, yet you still ask for a nerf? > Elo isn’t perfect, as demonstrated in yet another SotL video here: > [https://youtu.be/GTaAWtuLHuo](https://youtu.be/GTaAWtuLHuo) > Yet, it is very commonly used in any sort of online matchmaking system to assess player’s skills. It is all about probability, and higher rank player can lose to another player who’s lower rank than his/her. Elo for 1v1 works fine. There might be some little quirks, but that all. Elo is also designed for 1v1, so it is pretty normal to have it work for 1v1. So for me you can make assumptions based on 1v1 RM. For team games is is really bad currently. It has some big quicks. For more discussion about this subject: > [@Analyses of the ratings - Spotting the issues](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/analyses-of-the-ratings-spotting-the-issues/81949/): > > I feel like ratings are a bit off. And i think i am not the only one who thinks there are some weird things into the ratings. So i decided to have a look. I used the following source: [https://thbrown.github.io/aoe2-de-rating-charts/](https://thbrown.github.io/aoe2-de-rating-charts/) This site only shows data for Ranked RM games. I would love to see some statistics about DM (both 1v1 and teamgames) and unranked maps. I dont really have a guess about DM, but i think the results of unranked are even more extreme than the results for RM team game… ---
**Author:** ![SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/soubotsito/32/29229_2.png) [@SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SouBotsito)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:05am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/94 "2020-10-23T06:05:10Z")
You and me 14, you pick any civ you want, we boom for 20 mins, we attack 20:01 i will destroy you not because i am better player but because i will have the economy to mass army right away, while all you can do is more vills, maybe a monastery lol and this will get better, even if you get a castle i can take it down with few capped rams like nothing. Hope you understand now why countering the cuman boom isn’t exactly the "i am going to boom my self"cause that would only work in a no rush 45 mins. ---
**Author:** ![WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/woodsiercorn696/32/29332_2.png) [@WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WoodsierCorn696)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:26am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/95 "2020-10-23T06:26:18Z")
This isnt really a competative setting at all. You add some bad no rush rules to the comparison. Every civ has a time frame in which they are weak and in which they are strong. Cumans are weak until the are in castle age and start massing military. You want to compare their strength at that point in time at which they start to benefit from the boom. That is not a good comparison at all. If you want a good comparison: Play according the rules in the ranked queue. The non-cuman player would most likely go FC followed by an all-in push. At that moment the Cuman player is pretty much defensiveless. He is stuck in feudal age, since he need to made army in feudal age. That army is also weaker then the castle age army of the enemy. You might even get castle dropped, but you dont have any real defense against it. I have still no answer to the question how you would deal with such kind of pressure as Cumans, while just booming. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:29am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/96 "2020-10-23T06:29:12Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > , we boom for 20 mins, we attack 20:01 i will destroy you not because i am better player but because i will have the economy to mass army right awa except you’re putting huge stipulations on the game. like not being able to attack for the fist 20 minutes. that isn’t how the game is played at all. you’re free to boom if you want and he’s free to attack if he wants. forcing him to ignore your weak window is just asinine. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 6:48am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/97 "2020-10-23T06:48:48Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > see the timer and i can deftly improve that not even min 17, 50 vill min 16 lol. on arena, with zero military beyond initial scout and zero need to worry about aggression. go ahead and try that on arabia ---
**Author:** ![SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/soubotsito/32/29229_2.png) [@SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SouBotsito)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 7:07am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/98 "2020-10-23T07:07:17Z")
I have done that and defeated players several players whose level is way higher than most guys in this topic, 2 tcs grants a nice defense vs feudal armies and if necessary just add one tower and thats it, i have even got trushed, sc+archs at the same time and still being ahead in economy and vills. ---
**Author:** ![SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/soubotsito/32/29229_2.png) [@SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SouBotsito)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/99 "2020-10-23T07:10:51Z")
you did not understand the point at all, previous topic i said certain maps and positions (pkt) allows you to play the perfect cuman 2 tcs mini boom, in the same circumstances even if you choose to counter boom, anyone who has boomed before knows that making 4 tcs boom at min 20 gets you 0 economy for making army cause everything is being used to keep vill production while the cuman will be getting castle age with the very same villagers but 3 stables and ready to mass non stop. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 7:18am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/100 "2020-10-23T07:18:41Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > 2 tcs grants a nice defense vs feudal armies and if necessary just add one tower and thats it except then you have to mine stone and build a tower and that takes away from your very nice boom, also the aggression doesn’t need to kill you, just disrupt and slow you down. your entire premise works under very ideal circumstances that don’t always pan out in game. if it was that good cumans would have a better track record. ---
**Author:** ![SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/soubotsito/32/29229_2.png) [@SouBotsito](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SouBotsito)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/101 "2020-10-23T07:55:35Z")
I shouldn’t do your homework, there are 1850 players trying to figure it out the proper BO for cumans, 2 of them have got 2k using them and lowering badly their rank using other civs. They are mixing the boom with feudal army, while normal players fail trying to go for the naked boom vs fc mangonels/monk push, once they improve that BO you will see more players boosting their ranks with cumans, the pros have never invented a single BO, they usually copy and execute those BO perfectly, so i am sorry if you are only taking in consideration tournaments were they want to play safe to secure $, one year ago hoang was a joke in voobly, hoang might looks weak in tournaments cause of the pressure but he is a successfully +2.3k rank player with that style, several other top players have copied his style and works for them and consider it strong, make no mistake he has beaten bact and accm in showmatchs. Same like the arambai meme strategy, it wasn’t invented by hera or any pro, average causal players not top players are the ones who develop those strategies and innovate the BO, you should focus in those players and not stats that have included low players or tournament games that includes CIV BANS,no repeat settings, cause that pretty much messes any trusty statistic. If you keep using kotd3 stats you will end up believing that portu is a top arabia civ cause of its 100% winrate. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/102 "2020-10-23T07:57:38Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > If you keep using kotd3 stats you will end up believing that portu is a top arabia civ cause of its 100% winrate. it’snot just kotd3 where they aren’t stellar. and obviously it’s not just kotd3 because small sample sizes, but even on ladder and other tournaments cumans aren’t having strong showings. again, if cuman fuedal TC bonus is so strong, how come the civ isn’t performing better? ---
**Author:** ![Biz5985](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/cdc98d/32.png) [@Biz5985](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Biz5985)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/103 "2020-10-23T08:48:14Z")
cuman performs fine in TG but the problem is not the cuman bonus. problem is the position-picking feature and the shallow maps with no water play. if you get them on wing or on a water map, they suck ---
**Author:** ![WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/woodsiercorn696/32/29332_2.png) [@WoodsierCorn696](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WoodsierCorn696)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/104 "2020-10-23T08:57:31Z")
> [@SouMexican](#): > > I have done that and defeated players several players whose level is way higher than most guys in this topic, 2 tcs grants a nice defense vs feudal armies and if necessary just add one tower and thats it, i have even got trushed, sc+archs at the same time and still being ahead in economy and vills. Why do you ignore my questions? I already said that you dont need to go for feudal army against Cumans. You need to perform a FC into some kind of push. You can hit castle age in about 15 minutes. Some civs can even perform an even quicker FC. If you hit castle age in 20 minutes, that means you have to defend against a castle army for 5 minutes, before you start massing an army. So the enemy is massing castle age army for already 5 minutes. Mangonels are knocking on your TC. How would you defend? I have asked this question already multiple times. I havent seen an answer at all. If i wont get an answer this time, then i would conclude that you would die against this kind of push. > [@SouMexican](#): > > I shouldn’t do your homework, there are 1850 players trying to figure it out the proper BO for cumans, 2 of them have got 2k using them and lowering badly their rank using other civs. That seems pretty common. If you just try hard to perfect 1 BO, then you will perform better with that BO. You will be much weaker with other civs. There are many players that just can play only 1 BO only, so they are much weaker if they play with other civs or use other strategies. If i use to scout rush only, i will become much better in scout rushing. It wont improve my archers rush. So i would be much better with scouts then with archers. Can i conclude scouts are much stronger then archers? Not at all. This shows that your statement proofs nothing. Oh, and i am still waiting for the adjusted villager graph. When will you drop it in this thread? I am looking forward tot the graph. Please also point out the mistakes the graph of spirit of the law please when dropping the graph in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RoomOfTheEvil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/roomoftheevil/32/29255_2.png) [@RoomOfTheEvil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/RoomOfTheEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 9:04am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420/105 "2020-10-23T09:04:31Z")
Free loom isn’t inca bonus. They get free loom but you can get it as well. Yo beat viper with it against malians in arabia even though it was more refined than hoang with very little eco at home. Cav archer do beat skirms, but you don’t want gold unit just fighting like that vs no gold unit, for example they almost beat camel archers on hill (the thread has all the data) [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/suggestion-balance-cumans-double-tc-boom-is-too-strong-need-nerf/104420.md?page=6)