[SUGGESTION] Burgundians Economy

It’s pretty much known already that Burgundians have the worst design in the game, not even that unique to begin with, heavily inspired by Franks which are a poor design to begin with, nothing to be inspired about there.
Having a gimmicky unique unit that serves as a cheap Knight basically, since microing that charge attack is barely microable, we’re left with just a generic Knight civ with gunpowder, and dont forget the doomsday weapon, Flemish RevoNOT-AOEIItion, Franks must be jealous.

With that being said, Burgundians are far from being a well rounded AOE II civ, we can’t really rework that chaotic mess of gimmicks, so we’ll have to deal with, also devs almost never bail on bad ideas no matter how vast the consensus is among the community.

Now there is one thing we can change, which was also recently tweaked a little, it’s their eco bonus:

Economic upgrades cost -50% Food, and are available one age earlier than other civilizations.

Quite an quirky rickety ceoncept to begin with, poorly implemented gimmick, they had to supplement it with a 50% food discount to make it worth using, however they went too far, 50% food discount is better than Vietnamese eco bonus that gives 50% wood discount on all techs, and I’m not even calculating the effect of teching it one age earlier. It’s such an unelegant addition, just to get away with an initial awful concept. Food is not tasty enough? add more sugar.

It’s a common approach these days sadly, implementing ideas by force, by sheer OPness, Urumi (another horrible design), they just made him a Shotel on steroids, cause why not, same about Hauberk- to save Sicilians from being a graveyard civ since it was way too hard for them to introduce the Donjon nerative into the game, so they gave them a Tarkaphract, win win win.

Back to Burgundians economy, now we’re at a point where there is no strategic desicion making position, wether to use this bonus or not, it’s ALWAYS worthy, and therefore not strategic and worse- not playable. Serves zero playability. Instead of giving the player a chance to challenge their own greediness they turned Burgundians into a flat eco civ that’s just supirior than others with nothing meaningful to play with.

My suggestion is not enough to fix this civ single dimensional stereotypical identity but it can help at least with our gaming experience, here it is:

Economic upgrades are researched instantly, and are available one age earlier than other civilizations.

Now you can actually feel invested and fully vulnerable commiting to your greediness, yet highly rewarded.
I’d even go for more bold and elegant version of this bonus by removing the age restriction whatsoever, Handcart in Dark Age, sure.

Let me know what you guys think, I hope I wasn’t too harsh with my criticism, nothing personal.
Thank you for reading!

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you sound really bitter. there is no point in insulting the designers/dev with statements like ‘worst design’, ‘uninspired’, ‘poorly implemented’ or ‘chaotic mess of gimmicks’ and you probably won’t get any constructive responses with this kind of tone/attitude


Weve already seen what happens when available early with no discount. Its just not worth taking and are too expensive.
Making it instant research wont change that.

The civ hardly needs nerfs either except flemish revolution.


No offense intended, Which would be a good civ design for you? Could you tell me your top 3 of best designed civs and Why? Real curiosity

On-topic: Same thought as MatCauthon


Not necessarily but there’s plenty situations where you can’t do anything vs thst civ (and I’m not talking about flemish). You either have to make dmg early or drag it out until super lategame but I do think that eco is busted at least with cheaper and earlier stable upgrades.

I mean even on semi closed maps like runestones burgundians is arguable a top civ and this although they have one of the worst tech trees in the game.

Imo rather remove eco upgrades earlier and give them last archer armor (against archer civs you basically need to play paladin). As other people said I don’t think having upgrades earlier is worth it unless if you get them while aging up and even if this was instantly it’s not much of an advantage.

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Tbh it’s not a bad idea and is probably more meaningful for wheelbarrow than the current version. But it probably means imp upgrades are never going to be researched in castle age, and it’s objectively a straight nerf so it’s not happening until the civ becomes nerf worthy.

If i was to nerf them anywhere eco wise id judt make the bonus not impact wb/hc (if needed)

You’re right Sir, I should have been nicer, though as you quoted, I am aware of my rudeness, it’s not bitterness but passion <3

Hey, I love this comment, I’d love to actually discuss about good designs. Here they are:
Byzantines- The artestry of delivering a balanced diverse civ without the need of an eco bonus.
Vikings- Best eco in the game yet no option to over-boom into, elegantly designed.
Mongols- Beautiful implementations of power-spikes, having no Halbs no FU Arb/Cavalier makes this civ tricky yet so rewarding to play.
Huns- Are Huns.
Aztecs- Despite being slightly OP currently, they make a great design of strength that slowly fades as the game goes, pricy gold heavy options that forces the player to be on the offense if he wants to win.
Khmer- The best hybrid of strengths and weaknesses.
Spanish- Another brilliant one dispite how bizarrely they rely on their Conq.
Ethiopians- Wonderful civ with the right amount of power-spikes and uniqueness.
Malians- Such a diversive experience, so many options yet none is overshadowed by the other.

Forgive me I chose 9.

This civ does worth a nerf in some aspects, especially closed maps/ TG. But the issure isn’t necessarily the fact it’s just a strong civ, it’s its identity. The dimension of playability.
Besides that I’m down for buffing other elements about this civ. We just need to avoid ending up with a win-win situation kind of bonuses, it makes the player feels like a textbook robot rather than a strategic player.

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To be honest, I love to play Burgundians, But I never actually use the Flemish Revolution cause I don’t know when to use that. That’s the only thing I’d change about the civ. Other than that I think it’s pretty well designed. The earlier eco upgrades would have been useless if they weren’t cheaper.

How I would change Flemish Revolution would be that, Burgundians can train Flemish Militia from the TC in Castle(weaker version) and Imperial Age. Flemish Revolution would reduce their cost and training time by 50%. I don’t know if it might be a good bonus but I’d pick this up over the current one any day 11


There is still the whole element of fun you need to consider. Your civs might be the best designed in existence, but if they aren’t actually enjoyable to play, that’s a bigger design failure than something like the Burgundians is. I think, with the exception of Flemish Revolution, the Burgundians are actually pretty well designed. They have an eco bonus that’s simple and satisfying to use, their UU can actually be microed well, and above all they have a unique castle :joy:. I actually enjoy playing them, but I don’t think I would like that as much if I can’t actually use their eco bonus. I also really like the DoI civs. They are fun, new unique and interesting. Urumi is a bit broken, but it’s an interesting design, and I do like it.


We basically sad the same things 11

Completely and totally disagree.

The fact of the matter is that the Burgundian bonus is really not that good when it comes to a straight boom match. Getting the option to click imp upgrades in castle is really not that much of an eco advantage, and the advantage of the previous upgrades is really quite small.

The true advantage lies in feudal age, where you already have feudal age upgrades and get castle age upgrades, while forcing your opponent to stay on just feudal age upgrades. This means that Burgundians actually like to play very aggressive in feudal age, to maximise their eco advantage. Overtaken is a master at this style.

But let’s analyse the super aggressive Burgundian feudal play. They can go for a spear skirm forward and add archers in addition, however they lack Bloodlines, meaning they don’t have the true feudal power unit, Scouts with +1/+1 and BL. Spend too long trying to force a full feudal and you could get mopped up and lose. It’s great design.

Convert your full feudal into an aggressive castle age with Cavalier (+2 atk knights w/o BL) and great monks to secure relics and keep your advantage in the late game, outlasting your opponent’s gold even though you don’t have power units of your own.

Vietnamese get a 100% discount on wood and that’s a better bonus if you don’t consider the effect of teaching one age earlier.

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Could you provide some links to his games of this style? Would love to watch!

Nah that’s not true. Even when going fc having bit axe for 10 more min is great. Then your first 4 or so farms last longer. Most of your other farms won’t run out before imp. Also heavy plow increases farmer speed a bit. Then bow saw earlier than opponent and I like to get the imp wood upgradrade upon arriving in castle age. And you spend way less res on all that including hand card and mining techs. It’s still one of the best booming civs.

Well you’re kinda right but the problem is that you usually don’t have the initiative as burgundians so you basically have to go from a defensive to an aggressive position. And if you open with aggressive builds you can’t really get the eco upgrades (aside from the fact that those units aren’t really what you wanna play long term). So actually it’s better if your opponent plays aggressive and delays castle age by that while you get the eco advantage behind thst.

How is it better? Lol…
Food worths MUCH more than wood at this phase of the game, food is supirior to any other res.
Do I really have to explain this? Do you know how this whole farming mechanism works? Food is the most limited resource out in AOE II nature.

Except the difference is viet arent using a food based army, esch civ is saving resources that csn be easily funneled into their army.

I dont get why so many want to buff Vietnamese. They are a solid civ as is.


It is better because Vietnamese save more resources overall.