Suggestion for changing Burmese

It’s pretty commonly acknowledged that Burmese are in a relatively bad place as a civ. Their bonuses don’t work great, and their gameplan is kind of weird, largely because things like archers can create issues until they have a castle, and they reach Imperial Age. First, I wanted to find some key parts of their identity that either should exist, or do exist and need to be kept to help make them a unique civ:

  • Missing the second archer armor. This is a big thing, because it is a main cause of their anti-archer weakness, but it is also a unique thing, being the only civ not to have it.
  • Having options to play Infantry, Cavalry/Elephants, the niche monks, or Arambai. These are all the main unit lines that the Burmese have, and they should all be somewhat viable. Archer units don’t feature, so they need one of these units to take the role of archer killer.
  • Being able to destroy buildings with cavalry. This was a big part of their unique identity with the previous Manipur Cavalry, and although they were still weak, being able to use cav against builders gave them a bit more of an identity.
  • Having a wood related eco bonus. This reflects how Burma was surrounded by dense rainforest, and also helps them out with actually playing the game.

I have the current Burmese below for anyone interested, and my suggestions under that, along with the reasoning. Note: If a bonus isn’t listed in my list, I think it should be replaced or removed. For my list, I’ve put all the actual bonuses in bold, because the explanations are quite long.

Current Burmese

Civ bonuses:

  • Lumbercamp upgrades free.
  • Infantry units have +1/+2/+3 attack in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Monastery technologies are 50% cheaper.

Team bonus:

  • Relics are visible on the map at game start.

Castle Age UT:

  • Howdah: Battle Elephants +1/+2 armor, costs 400F 300W, 40 second research time.

Imperial Age UT:

  • Manipur Cavalry: Cavalry units get +5 attack against archers, costs 650F 400G, 40 second research time.

Suggested Burmese:

Civ Bonuses:

  • Lumberjacks generate food at 40% of the rate they collect wood. Affected by Lumbercamp upgrades. This reflects the need for a wood related eco bonus, and replaces the not super useful current free lumbercamp upgrades. The free upgrades save a total of 550 food. 10 lumberjacks, with no upgrades, should pay this of in about 6 minutes if they generate food at the same time as wood. After that, every ten lumberjacks generates 94 food per minute with no upgrades. With double bit axe, 10 lumberjacks generate 112 food per minute. This increases further with each eco upgrade, but should remain balanced. This compliments the Burmese playstyle, by supporting Arambai, Infantry, and Cavalry. A barracks costs 175 wood, so creating one will mean that the player has collected 70 food, which is enough to afford either an extra villager, another militia line unit, or cover the cost of supplies. This then helps encourage playing infantry, or playing scouts, because to afford a stables and a barracks already lets the player purchase an extra scout or two. It also helps if the player plays Arambai. This is because, each Arambai costs 75 wood. Each Arambai created means the player will have gained at least 30 food. If the player is playing Arambai, a large part of their eco is more likely to be directed towards wood and gold to allow continuous creation, making it harder to afford upgrades. The Elite Arambai upgrade for example, costs 1,110 food. By adding this bonus, the creation of 36 Arambai will fund all of the food for the upgrade. Overall, this bonus makes the Burmese eco better, and more focused towards a number of strategies they are likely to use, while still reflecting the dense rainforest the free lumbercamp upgrades were inspired by.
  • Infantry have +1/+2/+3 attack in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age. This bonus is a decent one, and allows Burmese to employ Men-at-Arms, or lategame infantry. It helps build their identity, and should be kept.
  • Monastery technologies are 50% cheaper. This helps with playing monks, particularly on maps like Arena. Although the monks are niche, this helps them remain viable.
  • Cavalry deal +1/+3/+5 damage to buildings in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age. Arambai deal +1/+3 damage to buildings in Castle/Imperial Age. All the bonus damage ignores building armor, or at least extra armor granted by the university techs. This bonus does a couple of things. It helps give Burmese more of an identity, because it recaptures some of the old Manipur Cavalry, by letting their cav destroy buildings without needing siege units. It buffs their Arambai slightly as raiding units, encouraging their use. It also makes a scout opening more viable. This is because scouts destroy houses, a common walling building, faster. A house in Feudal Age has 750 HP and -1 Melee Armor. A generic scout before Forging deals 5 damage per hit in Feudal Age, meaning it destroys a Feudal house in 125 hits. With Forging, it destroys a house in 108 hits. With this bonus, a Burmese scout without Forging destroys a house in 108 hits, and with Forging, destroys it in 94 hits. That makes it significantly faster, meaning Burmese become a lot better at raiding with scouts in Feudal Age, as well as destroying bases in the lategame with Cavalier, Elephants, or possibly even Hussars.

Team Bonus:

  • Relics are visible on the map at game start. This is a pretty decent team bonus, helps their identity, and needs no changes.

Castle Age UT:

  • Manipur Cavalry: Knight and Scout lines get +3 attack against Archers, Battle Elephants get +5 attack against archers. Cost is now 400F, 300G. Because Burmese Skirmishers lack the second pierce armor, they aren’t a very good counter to Archers. The role then falls to cavalry as an anti-archer unit, which is the purpose of the current Manipur Cavalry. The problem is, by having the current one as an Imperial Age tech, the Archers will probably have already inflicted massive damage, or even won the game already by the time the Burmese reach Imperial Age. By changing it to Castle Age, it becomes more likely that it will come in in time to make a difference. The reason I think that the Knight and Scout lines should only get +3, is because, with the other suggested bonuses, there will likely be some Scouts from Feudal for the Burmese, or even Light Cav on maps like Arena. It’s also easier to mass Knights than it is Elephants, so the bonus is reduced for them. Elephants have a hard time catching up to Archers, but they are a regional unit, and part of the Burmese identity, so the bonus is increased for them to encourage them to go for Elephants more, especially in the lategame. A fully upgraded generic Castle Age Crossbowman has 35 HP and 2 melee armor. A fully upgraded generic Light Cav deals 9 damage, killing a Crossbowman in 5 hits. If they have +3 attack from Manipur Cavalry, they now kill a Crossbow in 4 hits. With the current +5 for all cavalry, they would kill a Crossbow in 3 hits, which is too high, hence dialing down the damage. A fully upgraded generic Knight deals 12 damage, killing a Crossbow in 4 hits. With +3 damage, it kills it in 3 hits, same as with +5 attack. Fully upgraded Castle Age Battle Elephants before +5 deal 14 damage, kill Crossbows in 3 hits. With +5 attack, they still do it in 3 hits, but bring Crossbows down to 1 health with 2 hits, meaning that any other unit can easily kill them. In Imperial Age, a fully upgraded generic Arbalester has 40 HP and 3 melee armor. A fully upgraded generic Hussar has 11 attack, kill an Arbalester in 5 hits. With +3 attack, it instead kills an Arbalester in 4 hits, with +5 it would do it in 3 hits, which is ridiculous for a trash unit to kill a gold unit so fast as opposed to normal, especially when gold is so valuable in the lategame. +3 attack is a good balance however. A fully upgraded generic Cavalier deals 16 damage a hit, kill Arbalesters in 4 hits. Giving it +3 attack kills it in 3 hits, and +5 would kill it in 3 hits as well. Therefore, giving Knights and Scouts +3 attack from Manipur Cavalry instead of +5 primarily affects the Scout Line, which is good, because easy to spam Hussars shouldn’t kill valuable gold units at the speed they would with +5 attack. Fully upgraded Elite Battle Elephants without +5 attack deal 18 damage, killing an Arbalester in 3 hits. With +5, they do it in 2 hits. This is good, because it encourages the Burmese to go towards Elite Elephants as a counter to archers, which helps build their identity. It doesn’t affect the number of hits it takes a Castle Age elephant to kill a Crossbow, meaning that it won’t make them too strong, but it means that Light Cav or Knights both become better anti-archer options for the Burmese, giving them better chances of surviving against the dangerous flood of archers in the midgame, that would often be employed against them under the current system. There is one more thing that needs to be addressed however. The current Manipur Cavalry has the cost of an Imperial Age technology, which isn’t practical in Castle Age, because there is no point in swapping the tech if the player can’t afford it anyway. The cost needs to be reduced therefore. Because gold is relatively easy to come by in the Castle Age, the gold cost shouldn’t need a major change. Food however, even with the additional income from wood, is usually being spent quickly, making it harder to afford the tech. Changing the gold cost to 300 would be a good start, because it now means the player can choose between 4 extra Knights, or killings Archers faster, if that is the direction they are going in. 4 Knights would cost 240 food, but that is way too cheap for the tech. Changing the cost from 650 food to 400 food could be a good option, considering how it needs to be fairly affordable in Castle Age, but the Burmese now have a bonus generating food while chopping trees, in addition to farming. The standard food cost for a Castle Age UT is either 250 or 300. However, this tech is more important than a lot of the other Castle Age techs.

Imperial Age UT:

  • Howdah: Battle Elephants +1/+2 Armor. Cost is now 800F, 450G. Howdah is another important part of the Burmese identity, having the heavily armored Battle Elephants. However, Elephants are a unit typically seen more in either Imperial Age, and/or in team games. This, coupled with Manipur Cavalry needing to move to Castle Age, means that Howdah must become the new Burmese Imperial UT. Getting +1/+2 armor is powerful in certain situations, like against Archers, but for an Imperial Age UT it is balanced. The cost however, needs to be addressed again. By Imperial Age, the player should have their economy in full swing. The current Howdah costs 400F, 300W, but that is definitely more of a Castle Age UT price. A fully upgraded Elite Battle elephant for most of the other Southeast Asian civs has 320 HP, and 7 Pierce Armor. As a fully upgraded generic Arbalester does 10 damage, it would take 107 hits to kill an Elite Battle Elephant. With Howdah, the Arbalester now does 1 damage a shot, roughly tripling that number. Because of this, the price for Howdah needs to increase significantly. Increasing the food cost to 800 would be a good start. The wood price is also going to need to change to a gold cost, to make it more of an expensive Imperial Age tech. 450 gold would be a reasonable amount, considering that the player also has to fund their Elephant army to make the tech worthwhile.

An important question: Have I overbuffed Burmese against Archers? I don’t think so. To afford either UT, the player first has to reach at least Castle Age, as well as affording a Castle. Then, they have to put in the high resource costs to research the tech, as well as having the military to make it worthwhile. There is still plenty of opportunity for Archer civs to get damage in in Feudal Age, or even later if the Burmese don’t get the techs. Burmese Skirms also don’t really last very well without the armor, so even if they are used as a counter to Archers in Feudal Age, they will have to be transitioned out of in Castle Age typically. Most archer civs also have good spear lines, or at least passable ones, and considering that the primary anti-archer tools of the Burmese have now been funneled into cav, spears should be a natural and good counter.
So, what do people think? Also, I appreciate anyone who reads the entirety of the post.

Just to sum up the new Burmese:

Civ Bonuses:

  • Lumberjacks generate food at 40% of the rate they collect wood. Affected by Lumbercamp upgrades.
  • Infantry have +1/+2/+3 attack in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Monastery technologies are 50% cheaper.
  • Cavalry deal +1/+3/+5 damage to buildings in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age, Arambai deal +3/+5 in Castle/Imperial Age.

Team Bonus:

  • Relics are visible on the map at game start.

Castle Age UT:

  • Manipur Cavalry: Knight and Scout lines get +3 attack against Archers, Battle Elephants get +5 attack against Archers. Cost is now 400F, 300G.

Imperial Age UT:

  • Howdah: Battle Elephants get +1/+2 Armor. Cost is now 800F, 450G.
1 Like

OP, just OP. And weird.
Food is worth almost twice as much in the early game as wood. So you are basically increasing lumberjacks efficiency by about 75 % (!!!). Both wood and Food is needed a lot at this stage, so you just get a base improvement to your eco and don’t need to place farms for a very long time as you don’t burn as fast through your free food.
I also don’t know how you can ever explain that bonus, it’s just a weird combination.

But I agree that the order of Howdah and Manipur Cavalry should be switched.


I’m not sure about the exact numbers, 20% might be more viable. It’s also similar to the Polish bonus, but with the other two resources.

Another idea, would be that whenever you place a building, you get 40% of it’s wood cost in food. Excluding farms.

Sorry no, the original free Lumber Camp technologies are decent and appropriate, actually enough for their economy. We don’t not need to make the Burmese like an economic behemoth.

Just choose one of them, infantry bonus or cavalry bonus.
Having both of those at the same time is too much in my opinion.
I would choose the siege cavalry but +1/+2/+3. The 5 is too much.
The most powerful Halberdiers should be left for other classic infantry civs such like the Japanese.

The problem of the Burmese is countering against archers, so as long as the switch of the UTs could deal it, they actually do not need so much buffing or changing.

Battle eles are already such an investment to upgrade and create, why you want the tech to be that expensive, is dumb, Tusks Swords is a stronger tech and is cheaper in comparison lol.
I get if is an Imperial UT, then it needs to be priced accordingly, but not that price, something like 500f 350w is fine. Burmese lack any food bonus and the tech needs to be accesible.

Speaking about Battle Elephants, I think their trample damage should be increased from 25% to 33% because they feel a bit ineffective vs Knights lol

1 Like

It is the same as the Polish bonus so its not that weird. I agree that it is too strong

Yes. I think, on reflection, it either needs to be nerfed to 20% or less, or it needs to change to whenever you complete a building other than a farm, you get 40% of the wood cost in food.

I find it weird that we are giving them the extra attack on cav against buildings as a bonus instead of the extra attack against archers. This way you are making Burmese better, sure, but you are still making them extremely polarizing since they will be relying in their economy to overcome their weakness against archers, while using cav against burmse will become ridiculously hard to pull off

Anti-archer cav bonuses have already been given to other civs. It’s also to try and recapture the old Manipur Cav.

Yeah but I dont think you are fixing the reason Burmse are so bad which is their terrible anti archer options.

The overlap isnt nice looking but makes more sense to use Manipur cav in the castle and make the anti archer part a bonus

Read it all
I don’t like the Cav bonus against buildings and the food generation of the lumberjacks (no need it)
I like the current wood bonus that Burmese have right now
Burmese are a Monk and Elephant civ, I would give them something related to this; I would like to give them a civ bonus that really help Elephants but not sure how the unit could help them against Archers
I proposed the free Elite Skirmisher upgrade but not sure about this
Devs should be very creative with the solution
Agree that they should be the only civ without the second archer armor

1 Like

Siege towers are 50% cheaper to help Burmese infantry rush.

Their Skirmishers are too fragile. There is no point in getting free E-Skirm if you miss the second armor.

Are you serious? Siege towers are pretty much useless, and making them cheaper for one civ won’t change that.

Really cool concept considering they are currently very reliant on food, but I can see it being too strong if it’s 40%. Then again, Burmese have a very low winrate and lose the free LC upgrades with this, so maybe it’s an option.

If it happens expect it to get nerfed in future patches. Also consider that with all LC upgrades a lumberjack will be almost as effective as a farmer due to how the upgrades and gathering caps work.

Regarding the cav against buildings, I don’t see how it’s relevant as a bonus, but ok. And the inversion of the UTs, with how much we have all cried about it, I think will eventually happen lol

Very true and will probably have big ramifications on Arena, such as one TC being supported only by the lumberjacks needed for 2 castle Arambai.

DESPITE THAT I think it’s a cool concept and could see use. If it was 25% maybe would be more reasonable, but yeah.

I’d rather see this and Burmese in the top 5 for a while than not touching anything and having the same Franks Mayans Chinese Aztecs Huns there.

First, the feudal scouts can destroy houses and palisade wall more easily.

It encourages players to organize cavalry as early as possible, even if they have not yet been able to research the Manipur. Once the player is unable to build a castle to use Arambai, there is still a bonus available for using common cavalry strategy. In addition, Burmese Battle Elephants will be more capable of Ram-like roles, and Arambai will be more powerful when gathering in a large group.

This is also in memory of the old effect of Manipur.

Even 20% will be a terrible amount of food once it accumulates in the late game. To be honest, I don’t think it is necessary to strengthen their trash battle. Before that, in the early game the amount of food it provided was not as good as to build more farms in my opinion.

Moreover, it is a Poles-like bonus while the Poles have a reason, the vast amount of salt and silver mines. What is the reasonable source of the food income from lumberjacks? Just because they live in jungle is not enough I think. Many peoples live in jungle too.

Myanmar has famous jade mines. Their jadeite has continued to gain popularity since it was introduced to China in the Ming Dynasty. If the Burmese really need more economy bonuses, I would like to keep the lumber camp techs free, and add a new one based on the jadeite. Maybe the gold miner can generate stone, just like the Pole stone miner but in turn.

The lumberjacks generate food idea is super bad imo as others explained. Their eco bonus is already good, no need to change that. Also we don’t need to give underperforming civs op eco just to make them good.

Extra atk vs buildings (previous manipur cav) as civ bonus I like but +1/2/3 should be enough. Currently the best to play them on open maps probably is all in castle age knights and siege which would benefit nicely from that.

Switching the UTs also makes sense.

And tbh I don’t like what they did with manipur cav. Feels somehow out of place to me. Not sure what would be a better one though.

And lastly arambai needs to be changed back somehow. First they got the fire rate nerf and then they nerfed atk and made misses shots deal more dmg. So it’s a bit better vs archers but they still get countered by them. And it just made them worse vs cav which is the unit arambai are supposed to counter. So atm they feel super useless.

try 10 percent and give Burmese the second archer armor upgrade.

Seems like another generic Knight civ, with a food eco bonus and bonuses to Knights.
That’s too easy, we can Frankisize every civ this way pretty much if all we care about is balance.

1 Like