[SUGGESTION] make walling more costly, nerf obsidian arrows

Everyone is walling nowadays and doing this without sacrificing a lot of eco and idle time, so it’s always beneficial to wall even on more open maps. This makes feudal aggressions pointless and the waller gets to a significant lead and able to go fast castle everytime.

The walling should be punished by making walling harder, so the players could think whether it’s worth doing it or not.
For example increasing the cost of palisade walls from 2 to 3 wood and/or increase its construction time by a reasonable amount to make it longer to build.

Similar topic, the wall scanning, a lot of people pointed out before that it should be removed, because it eliminates the purpose of the fog of war, also very annoying and gives not deserved advantages.

The other thing is obsidian arrows, that +6 damage is too much in my opinion, 5 would be enough, the bigger problem is that stone defenses are even weaker due to the additional +6 bonus against them. Walls are ment to hold. This other bonus is too much in my opinion or make it like +2 or 3 max.

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Walling has to be good otherwise the outcome of most games will be decided in Feudal Age. Btw, +1 wood cost decides nothing - it’s idle time what matters. The only solution to building scanning I see is to not highlight buildings with red when they are over enemy units in fog of war. Instead you get a message “foundation is blocked” if you actually click to place it. In this case we pay with UI friendliness.

5 Likes

Sure, I don’t want walling to be unaffordable, i just want it to be more investment, but i agree +1 wood cost is not a big deal. In terms of foundations, you should be able to place it without providing any vision, and when you get there, the building would be cancelled (if you discover an enemy building for example).

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I second slightly nerfing obsidian arrows

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I totally agree with the fact that walls do not introduce any downsides for the waller. I think the cost should be increased to 3 wood instead of 2 and mimic the repair/build rate of palisade walls to match gates.
Ofc the purpose of this change is to introduce an economical downside nothing more. Take a look at towers for example, they were nicely nerfed to introduce economical disadvantages and we could notice that games are now much more fun to play and watch.

It would certainly be understandable to wall yourself with a few pieces of palisades when you get a tight map. But walling yourself with over 40 pieces of palisades on an open map and losing only 40x2= 80 wood… That’s just a little investment put into installing huge walls.

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I do not agree with the premise of increasing the build time of the Palisades. Not only is that going to make closing off a wall harder, but it’s actually a significant cost increase to the Palisade by making the villager work longer on not collecting resources, which is the true cost of the Palisades. 40 pieces of palisades is a massive amount of villager idle time in terms of walking and building, not to mention returning to whatever work it was doing. That’s a much more serious dial to turn than upping the cost in any meaningful way.

We do not want to make walling out pressure more time consuming, as it will simply make open maps more suited to civs that have strong early eco bonuses in dark age for applying tons of pressure, and Arabia is already suited to that. I think making it cost more is a better solution, but in reality, the real problem is the map generation has changed to make walling on open maps more friendly. This is the reason that walling has become a problem, not changes to walling in and of itself.

If we want to solve this problem fruitfully, I think the proper solution would be to tweak the map scripting so as to cause the woodlines to spawn on the back of the civ more often, as opposed to the sides and/or front. This will make it more difficult to get a full wall off on open maps outside of a fortunate generation (which is something we’ll never address without making the maps generic) and make partial walls standard meta to protect sensitive areas again.

4 Likes

While that’s true… The idle time put into securing the base is later on more worth than investing into trash units or scouts to protect the base. Let me enlighten you with a fact, Players can win games with a dead villager to a boar or enemy scout. So basically idling one villager for 40x6= 240 seconds = > 4 mins (ingame time) is sooo worth than buying defenses that cost lots of wood and food.

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Yes, but making, and keeping that option feasible, gives civs that need time to build up a chance to exist as opposed to the map being written off for them. It’s a fine balance to strike and increasing the cost directly is a much more delicate and direct approach. Slowing down the wall time makes the strategy more difficult and more costly, and that’s a very hamfisted approach that will get the most suffering arabia civs killed.

I don’t want every game to be a walled arena map after 10 minutes. Consistency is bad for interesting and dynamic gameplay. That’s why I feel map generation tweaks are better than any of the other options presented but I definitively do not want build time increased. That’s my hard no.

You can also still place the foundation if map terrain allows you to place it and remove the foundation once an obstruction is scouted.

2 Likes

Obsidian arows nerf ? i have seen people cry about eldorado but never about obsidian arows :smiley:

btw masonery is quiete impactfull vs OA.

Or we need a siege workshop with rams available in Feudal for everyone, not just cumans. I really think that would an idea worth trying.

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Masonry and architecture only affects the HP of the buildings in this situation, because the building armor it gives doesn’t protect against obsidian arrows, it’s a different armor class.

I think the wall-meta should be left evolving a bit more, maybe people find weaknesses of it. But ok, granted it leads to just wall into FC a lot, maybe the right fix isn’t to make wall more expensive.

Maybe address by providing better tools vs walls like rams in Feudal.
Maybe adsress by making maps that are just more open like in Redbull tournament.

I have a hard time recalling the last time a high level Mayans player used Plumed Archers or Siege Ram. Obsidian Arrows is that strong. It ought to not be effective against defensive buildings if it’s going to give a stronger and faster power spike against buildings than the Saracen bonus at the cost of about 2 Castle Age Blacksmith upgrades.

And a castle, which is why obsidian arrow doesn’t come in place till late castle/early imp

The villagers simply making walls is the cost of making walls. Rather than said villager gathering resources.

??? It happens all the time. And speaking of siege rams, they are still better against defensive buildings and are irreplaceable as an arrow sponge.