What I’ve found is that when I face a strat that I feel is OP the best thing to do is try it myself. I get that it’s not how you want to play the game, that’s fine, but try it 10 times, figure out what makes it work, and what opponents do in response that make it unsuccessful. And then go back to playing the way you want, but now you have the knowledge of how to stop it since you’ve seen it from the other side.
Here’s the thing. We have so many players in these forums who want to nerf everything other then the one strat they like. Call alternative strats cheese all you want, but if we nerfed everything other then mainstays we’d be stuck with every game being 100% meta play, which is what we often see at the pro level, which is honestly a little boring after a while.
Think about how fun to watch Hoang is, vivi with sneak vils, TaToH tower rushing in castle age, viper with all the memes. Those are “cheese strats” but nerf them and suddenly everyone is Hera. The thing that makes AOE2 fresh after all these years is variety.
It’s quite childish to call these tactics “cheese” and attack them simply because one doesn’t like them. At least, in my opinion.
This game is about strategy and adapting. None of these strategies are broken if you a) scout, b) adapt. In fact, these strategies often put you behind if they react properly.
If you reread my original post, its not about whether or not I personally can stop it/win after it. As I said sometimes I deny it and win, sometimes I lose. I’ve played DE about 800 hours, so I think I’ve dealt with them enough. The point is it ends fun games, that could be decided using UNITS, prematurely. Castle that is built near your farms, military buildings and TC can be QUITE devastating. Why do you even need an army if you do it early enough, or lets say the enemy was fighting you elsewhere? You don’t need economic or military superiority at all to drop a castle. All you really need is for the opponent not to notice it in time or have melee and not ranged units, or have the units too far away at the time, 650 stone, and some villagers to build it. And it works for high level play as well, you can see plenty of ‘all in castle pushes’ at the high levels as well where Viper cannot deny forward castles right ‘in his face’ due to quick walling, etc. He ends up having to go build tcs elsewhere to deal with it sometimes, that is how powerful castles are. It is simply too easy to do. Conversely, I’ve seen Viper win using only buildings before (granted, a skill gap). So this isn’t a ‘noob’ thing.
The definition of ‘fun games’ is pretty debatable. That you dont have fun in such games, doesnt mean it isnt fun for other players. Given the respons of most players, i think we can conclude you are in a minority.
Yes, castle are strong, but they also cost a lot. It will really hit your eco hard. You cant build multiple TCs and boom, you need 650 stone (you cant gather other resources in the mean time), you need to send villagers forward (in this time they dont gather resources). So if you want for an early castle drop, that is like a 1 TC all in strategy. It can work, but if it fails, you loose the game. So high risk, high reward. Perfectly fine. It isnt also too common, so we can say it is OP.
So it is you that just dont like this strat. That is not a reason for a nerf of castles for me.
So your opponent can get 10-15 villagers and 650 stone and an army but you don’t have any scouting info or military to know you’re being castle dropped?
Sounds like you’ve never been castle dropped yourself, which is hard to believe, but I suppose its possible. Typically I would build my castle defensively in my base, and the opponent would build his castle offensively in my base while I am fighting him elsewhere and I don’t notice in time to stop it. We would both have equal resources in that situation. Or maybe we just traded military in a fight. Or maybe I have lots of military and he has none, so he decides to build castle in my base while I am attacking his base. Point is, it is super easy to drop a castle without any military needed at all. I might know I am being castle dropped immediately, but can’t get enough units there in time to stop it. Maybe my units are on the way to his base, or on the other side of my base.
Gotta keep looking back at your eco man if he’s building it literally in your base you should have seen his color entering your minimap before any foundation was laid. If what your saying is he’s building outside your eco, then it shouldn’t ruin your whole economy, just deny a woodline or gold etc. If further as you say your army couldn’t stop it because you were in his base raiding, then the castle that’s now close to your land isnt doing anything to stop that raiding army, so keep punishing his eco.
So then you’re not saying its OP, if sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt and it has high risk high reward, then it’s not OP. We agree here. What you’re arguing is it’s not fun? Ok, I don’t think Devs nerf things because some players don’t enjoy it. It sounds like most of the people here feel that Castle drops are a fine part of the game. Prior to your post I hadn’t heard others express your opinion.
So bottom line, if you don’t find them fun, I respect your opinion on that. There are definitely strats I face that I don’t find fun, like when I’ve been rushed by floods of dark age Goth militia. But I don’t think it would be good for the game to be re-balanced based off of what I find fun, it’s just something i have to adapt to and deal with.
Why is the perspective, “Nerf X !” (to just name a few from recent discussion threads)?
Nerf forward castles
Nerf the Mangudai
Incas need nerf
Archers are too op
nerf quick walling
nerf the goth infantry
The perspective should be instead:
How do I counter forward castles?
How do I counter Mangudai?
How do I counter Incas (Villie Trush) ?
How do I counter Archers deathball?
How do I quick wall/How do i counter?
What is a good way to counter the goths infantry spam?
This is the perfect place to come looking for answers to these questions. Instead of removing parts of the game you find difficult or challenging, seek to improve yourself as a player and learn how to counter these strategies.
I could not count the number of times that I have been faced with a strategy, and because I had no idea what it was or how to counter it, I was absolutely destroyed. However, instead of decrying it as cheating or unfair; I examined it, sought for advice and guidance from online communities (such as the age of kings heaven forums back in the day) and learned how to counter it.
Not only did the experience make me a better player, but as I learned to enjoy and appreciate the game even more as I discovered each of the creative and diverse ways that people find to play the game in an attempt to win. To try and remove these other avenues of victory, is to stifle creativity and force everyone to play one way; which obviously would become boring and monotonous for everyone.
I think that many of people who play this game, play it for the beautiful challenge that it provides in combating opponents from around the globe, who each have their own unique strategies and paths that they follow in an attempt to gain victory!
If you want an experience where your opponent will follow the same strategy every time or play within parameters that only you find to be acceptable - I would highly recommend just playing against the AI. It does the same thing every time, and there exists a variety of different AI types that I am sure would match your play style in a way you would find appropriate.
P.S. @BoughtRelic9282 your posts are awesome - keep up the good writing
If your opponent manages to kill you just by dropping a castle most likely you were dead before. Forward castle are extremely risky: the best castles are the ones which controls strategic hills or resources, not the ones in front of your enemy’s face
I just got out of a game where I was Saracens and he Tuetons. In dark I drushed, then he went towers in feudal which I threw off then in castle we were skirmishing. I saw I had a nice score lead so I went for the castle drop to finish the game and prevent him booming into a comeback. He also saw the score difference and went for a castle drop to try and boom behind it. So there we were both with enemy castles in our lands, what a mess!
To me I love when the game just entirely devolves into madness, I think it would be sad to take away these aspects of the game.
I hope you saw Tatoh vs Hera hosted by Mario Ovalle. Hera tried to FC+CD vs double tc but Tatoh made scouts and sniped all the builders.
Once my opponent castle dropped me but managed to build my own castle and clear his janissaries with my arambais and made a counter attack. His base had nothing to defend.
Sure, most forward castles are like these but… your enemy isn’t going to build it in your LOS. It is like a sneaky tower in your wood, do you expect it? Well, it wouldn’t be called sneaky. And before you start about scouting, you have 1 scout and multiple vills build faster if you don’t have the right army (archers basically)
No, a guy posted franks (a bit cheaper castles) 13 min and something sec forward castle build with youtube video. He should be famous for his build orders (like that 20 elephants min 20 or less build)
I already wrote to you about this. Melee units can be quickwalled, and you need to have archers and know he is doing a castle rush and you have to locate the castle’s position/vills. If he builds it in your eco point where you don’t have LOS, the castle will go up (like any sneaky towers) and will deny you most of your eco in that point. Check the full play and you see how you can continue with that build.
He does against AI because it is easier to show and do but it doesn’t mean it isn’t viable… in fact his 20 ele rush is used sometimes.
if he’s building it literally in your base you should have seen his color entering your minimap before any foundation was laid. If what your saying is he’s building outside your eco, then it shouldn’t ruin your whole economy, just deny a woodline or gold etc. If further as you say your army couldn’t stop it because you were in his base raiding, then the castle that’s now close to your land isnt doing anything to stop that raiding army, so keep punishing his eco.
