[Suggestion--rework] 🐄 <Double Purpose Cattle of Europe> 🐑

Its economy was largely based on agriculture. Changes in them may not be necessary with respect to cattle. Although the Aztecs could have a temple where they worship jaguars or something like that, because I’ve always thought they need some flagship building.

What could be done with lakota and haudenosaunee?

A temple like that would be best as a replacement for the “Community Plaza”/“Fire Pit”. The fire pit was kind of a dumb caricature, but the plaza is not a good way at all of replacing it, and a temple would be much more appropriate. It could be much more expensive than the plaza but you could have a starting travois to create the first one. Stuff like aging up and capital upgrades could even be shifted to the temple building.

The Inca could have their own style of temple, and the Lakota and Haudenosaunee could have a Sweat Lodge building. Though Sweat Lodges have some religious and cultural significance so stuff like spawning warriors could be shifted to the town center or tipis or longhouses (where it would fit better anyways).

Sweat Lodge

Incan Inti Temple

Aztec Temple

… Or it could start out as a community plaza and evolve into a temple as you age.

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I just really don’t like the community plaza :sweat_smile: (or the original fire pit)

It wouldn’t need to start out as a mega temple like the one in Tenochtitlan. A minor one more on par with a sweat lodge would be a good start, and then that could upgrade as you age. It could have a cost equivalent to something like a Nobles’ Hut but you could start with a travois to build the first one to ease the early game burden. Maybe a bit lower starting resources to compensate for having a better starting building. If aging up were moved to the temple, there’d already have to be some rebalancing to account for being able to train villagers while aging.

I have looked for something of reference to have a basis of the concept art about it:


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Look at this analysis on the viability of cattle in supremacy. Even in treatise it is not good enough for many civilizations according to this video:

This makes it clear how implausible livestock is at this time. ¡This needs to be fixed!.

i think that its fine that livestock is a somewhat exclusive mechanic to a few civs personally.


This feature came before ‘The African Royals’ DLC, and I hardly ever saw it used at any player skill level. What I think is that they reconsidered and reimagined it. They turned this characteristic into a really useful function with the Africans, because it was without doing anything for more than 15 years.

I think the developers also want it to be useful in general because they created the 7 sheep + a corral card, but as explained in the video, it is not much use either. So the way to make it more productive is to make it useful since the animals are created.

I agree that some civilizations excel in this regard more than others, but that it may be useful in general since almost all civilizations used cattle in their history.

among good treaty players it is something you have to do as British, and its the ideal way to play Hauds (tho almost no one plays them) and China.

in theory you could imagine a supremacy build that involves that + the fattened cows + furmills

something like this could in theory work in high player number games outside of treaty.

as for treaty then something like this is pretty standard for british:

while obviously almost the entirety of the west ended up becoming more and more meat and diary heavy in the periode i still dont think its a good idea to just make all factions want to invest into it, it would dilute the current factions using it and maybe even from future factions that could have unique cowing mechanics themselves.

then there is the balance issue where the truth is that if you add cow ecos to other european factions then you are buffing esp their lategame eco for factions that are typically already having powerful ecos and you are likely also going to make the economy a lot more complicated for factions who partially are liked for their simple eco.


Aztecs, Lakota and Haudenosaunee could also benefit from this. Although in the forum I have only considered primarily Europeans, the cattle should have a rework in general.

Furthermore, this would not be an opening strategy for European civilizations. It will be an economic option that depends on cards, something similar to when you decide to make an economic strategy based on fishing. The price of livestock could be increased, and if necessary, that of corrals as well. That is why I have also proposed the reinvestment mechanism, so that it is easier to balance and at the same time give it its own identity.

The British could be the exception. However, it is somewhat situational. You run a risk while making your investment profitable. I once saw a PRO player do this strategy, but it was in mongolia where you can collect a lot of water buffalo.

American civilizations could fatten cattle faster assuming they fatten them on corn. I think milking would not apply to them. They could earn 10 coins every time they slaughter a cow emulating the skins trade.

For the sheep they could generate wool (coins) without the need to reinvest and automatically in the farms.

The manure idea is very good. Perhaps the cows could boost crop production while they get fatter.

Although I have not found anything with historical sense that demonstrates the use of European cattle by Native American civilizations. But it could be easily solved by substituting the animals. I would like the advice of AnaWinters in this regard.

A survey regarding livestock:

Would you like variety of cattle breeds by civilization?

  • Yes, each one with advantages and disadvantages.
  • No, the traditional model is fine.
  • Yes, but only aesthetically. There is no need to add more complexity.

0 voters

In case the cattle were more viable, would you use it? Would you like it?

  • YES
  • NO

0 voters

Would you like cards, politicians and new technologies related to livestock?

  • YES.
  • NO.

0 voters

Holy ■■■■! Someone definitely did their research on cattle.

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only for new factions i think, i still think there are too many risks involved in touching the current factions.

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I get the feeling you don’t have much real life experience with cattle. The only practical difference between breeds is between dairy cattle and beef cattle. In a game about colonial warfare, this is a minor distinction and not worth the needless complexity.

The reason the euro civs don’t use cattle is because cows are gated behind cards and take a lot of APM to manage.

The first problem to solve is to make cattle accessible without needing to give up a card. I think the best way to implement that would be through buffing the Naturalist Politician.

image The Naturalist
Ships 2 Settlers and 2 semi-fattened Cows & enables training cows at the livestock pen

To give a reason to still send the Ranching card, some adjustments would be needed. The base cost of cows should be increased to at least 100 to make the Naturalist buff a little more minor. Next, the Ranching card should be buffed as follows:

image Ranching
Enables training cows at the livestock pen & -20% cost for all livestock (this keeps it the same for cows, but it now also buffs sheep). Possibly also deliver a couple of skinny cows.

The next step would be to give livestock a way to generate resources in a way that doesn’t require so much micromanagement. I think the best way to do this would be to have a card that enables livestock to be tasked to pens to be milked/sheared. The least intrusive way to do this would be to have them function like a Japanese shrine. This could be enabled through an Advanced Livestock Pen card.

Advanced Livestock Pen Advanced Livestock Pen
Livestock Pens are cheaper and stronger & Livestock Pens generate a small trickle of resources when fully fattened livestock are tasked to them

Cows, water buffalo, goats, etc. produce milk (pens generate food)
Sheep, llamas, yaks, etc. produce wool (pens generate coin)
Larger animals would contribute more to resource generation

European civs already have decent economies so this ability should definitely be locked behind a card so they have to exclude something else to get the benefit. The rate of resource generation should also be modest, and not as fast as the rate African cows generate. The number of Livestock Pens should also be limited to prevent this from being abused in treaty games. A build limit of ~5 would be a good start, and shipments like 7 Sheep + 1 Homestead Wagon or Advanced Livestock Pen could increase the build limit by 1 for each one sent.


Of course there are risks in damaging the balance and I understand that. It is something that would have to be studied a little more thoroughly. But a game of strategy always has these kinds of risks when something new is implemented.

I’m not an expert, but I know what I’m talking about. Livestock is very diverse, they are usually very varied from each other. There are beef cattle, dairy cattle, and there are cattle that are intermediate between meat and milk.

But that’s not exactly where I go with the races. For example, cattle of Iberian origin are more adaptable to the tropics, and easier to feed, so it would be cheaper cattle and they would get fatter a little faster. It would give little milk, but would require less reinvestment.

However, it is just a very demanding proposal that I would love to see implemented, but I would be satisfied if it is implemented only as something aesthetic.

As I have mentioned, this strategy would require cards to be a viable economic option. Many things would have to be adjusted so that it eventually does not outperform the economies of other civilizations beyond what it should. I think reinvestment would help balance this mechanic.

This would be a good strategy on maps where hunting is scarce or where the map has stray cattle.

The problem I have with livestock is that it takes too many cards to fully optimise.

Stockyards, Ranching AND fulling mills.

How about something a bit more like this:

  • Cows and water buffalos are buildable by default in age 3 but only with a build limit of 10
  • Aztec get Llama’s instead of cows in age 3 with a build limit of 10
  • Ranching now grants +10 to build limit of cows and allows them to be trained in any age, llama ranching does the same for llamas (and aztec get llama ranching instead of ranching)…
  • The cost of cattle and sheep/goats are flipped.

Another thing that cpuld be added is allowing Hauds and lakato to sell livestock at the the coral, this could help with the lakato late game coin issue and the Haud wood issue. But i’m not totally behind this yet.

I agree that cows and sheep are present by default, but with a lower limit that can be increased.

Yamas for the Aztecs would also be out of place, but I think it could be left as it is today (cows and sheep).

For Lakota and Haudenosaunee they could play a new role. I think selling the cattle is a good idea, but it would make them very similar to the African ones. Someone proposed the idea of manure, I think this could be a bonus that cattle give to agriculture while they get fat, and once it gets worse the bonus increases a little more. It can be a good solution for pre-Columbian civilizations.

Yo preferiría algo mas simple, que el ganado cueste oro en lugar de alimento y mientras engorda produzca algo como por ejemplo Oro, Alimento o Exportación.

It could cost gold and food at the same time. The corrals would cost more wood. Many things would have to change to give balance and utility at the same time.

Indian sacred cows could generate wood with the ‘herding’ card. Its limit could be increased to compensate in case the European cattle have more viability. Also export if it makes sense in any way.

For Japan I do not know if they need any compensation because they are a very strong end-game civilization, but if it were the case, they could increase the income of the sanctuaries for domestic animals.

For China, maybe some card that allows to receive water buffalo for each shipment, and / or when building a town. Villages could be configured to generate a very small amount of exports or food.

They are just ideas that occur to me to compensate other civilizations in some way. There could be many more ways with better historical argument.