I am Diamond 3 player(id:Athanatoi) so at least not worse than you.
Barbican rush is definitely not a joke and the only viable strategy against HRE for China. Check DeMuslim Game 2 Vs MarineLord just now.
I have played the strategy since the early stages… earlier than most pros to be honest. Tower rush is disgusting, especially with the upgrade too cheap, too fast and too effective. Two towers can cutdown a wood-line with ease. You spent 175 resource to get an feudal arrow tower which can defeat 4 castle MAA with ease. In defense it is reasonable, but when the towers are mis-used in enemy base, what else do i need to say?
You said 2 towers. Which is 350 resources + villager time spent traveling and building it + any additional buildings they make.
Now remind me how much does it cost to build resource gathering building? Was it 50 wood? Ah yes it was.
So lets say opponent starts shutting down your woodline with 2 towers. Relocate to different woodline and you’re 150 wood ahead (200wood - 50wood). Every tower thats put up and upgraded is essentially putting u far ahead of your opponent. It would be different story if there is only 1 woodline that u had to defend. If they continue to upgrade which requires feudal which allows you to access units like archers or horsemen which both can be used to shutdown any new towers.
You saying it sucks like it doesnt work? or it’s easily countered? b/c I’ve seen top players FAIL to stop it; even a few times in TOURNEY!?? (bbq/tr) that is.
So because it worked its op? So what about MAA pushes? Ram pushes? Or any other form of push? If it works its op? So why don’t we nerf everything so nothing works?
Look I know its frustrating to lose against cheese but because someone lost to it even at pro level doesn’t mean its “op”.
Tbh I stopped watching AOE4 pro scene few months ago due caster(s) weren’t entertaining enough for me so I went back to watch SC2 GSL because casters are super awesome. The point is if u have ever played SC2, you would know how many different cheeses there is in that game and all of them put timer on the person who cheeses because if it fails they lose and if they succeed they win.
TR or BBQ rush is exactly same in AOE4 or its actually worse gamble in AOE4 than its in SC2. In SC2 if u have not played all resources all located in very specific spot and there isn’t “easy” way to move workers to get resources compared to AOE4 or other AOE4 games.
Its cheap to relocate to another location and no opponent has economy to stop every attempt of relocation and each tower is investment and if that investment doesn’t pay off they’re so behind that they shouldn’t be able to come back. Its on you as defender to capitalize on that lead and if you cant then its on you not on strategy.
it seems you lack consistency? If by YOUR defintion something “sucks”, I would THINK that means it DOESN’T work, or it seldom works, or it only works vs bad , or something similar to FAILURE?
Just because something sucks doesnt mean it cant work… I won game with 199 villagers and 1 scout. Does that mean the strategy is good/reliable and viable strat to use? No its not. It sucks but it worked.
If TR/BBQ rush was OP we would see massive win rate difference on civs that can execute it better than other civs. Winning handful of games in tournament where players play hundreds of games is ■■■■ indicator if something is op. Yet another fact if BBQ/TR was so op then China would be rank1 civ but its not???
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199 vil works at high level? as in higher than gold?? Can you share a game or reference one where it works? meanwhile TR/BBQ works at all levels effectively; it has its risky trade-offs but its I don’t think “sucks” can be associated with TR/BBQ strats; ESP since TR use to be use powerful for mongol that they nerfed mongol starting wood, change the cost of towers, etc etc. Now I was never on the it’s still so OP that it an auto win; but it doesnt suck.
Are you new to RTS genre?
You know SC1 & 2 and WC3 got tons of cheesy strategies that are used at highest level.
If you dont know anything about any of those games then I recommend watching videos to get better idea, but for example in SC2 GSL S1 2021 Code A (if I recall season correctly) player named Prince did nexus (equal to town center in aoe4) to enemy base in fog of war. It luckily got scouted, but if it wasn’t then he would’ve won the game.
Think 2022 Season 2 finals Rogue did double proxy hatchery (again equal to TC) at next to opponents base and won the game and this is at finals at highest level on game that has probably best RTS players in the world.
Then yet the fact that there is many cannon (tower) rushes and other types of rushes.
Yes rushes work especially when they’re not scouted, but hardly ever they are considered so op that they need nerffing. Theres been rushes and cheeses that are insanely strong and been nerffed like SC2 Reapers (thank you Byun) who actually dominated himself to world champion with this “cheese”
Tower rush in AOE4 is completely different compared to SC2 and WC3 (2 RTS games I played lot of before AOE4) and its several times weaker, simply because how EASY it is to relocate your villagers to gather resources to different location making the tower almost useless and gives defender massive advantage.
Once Feudal age is reached defender needs only 2 scouts + 5 archers to shut down any future towers coming up. (assuming there is no enemy archers or horses)
Mongol TR was and is completely different story. When it was at its strongest it wasn’t the TR rush itself what was strong but how mongols work. They don’t need to mine stone, build houses and they got resources from burning opponents buildings down. They also got double production with stone AND still got really strong scout Khan and top of that they would get speed from towers + cheaper towers. This is completely different from other civs doing TR or BBQ rush.
BBQ rush → Automatically huge loss to china and achieves exactly what? MAYBE shuts down one resource location with having landmark next to base to get destroyed and no protection from raids which is crucial for china. Normal towers get up faster but so what? Relocate villagers just when its rdy and run away and china losses 100 wood and is behind 50 wood or more.
I actually thinkg English been the civ that does most TR in my games and since I learned to ignore it and never over react to it, its not been problem. Since I came back couple of weeks ago to play again I have not lost to single TR and I get multiple per day.
relax
this guy maining China and do every possible cheese start:
before it was FL/bombards, now it’s bbq/TR
but bbq is easy to fix: return % spend resource if canceled.
You do know me that well.
Too bad that only thing you got right was FL and look what happened? They become unusable shit units that should be buffed. Same with bombards. Top trash tier.
Then do this with every landmark not just bbq and every building.
BBQ rush is trash and not worth.
Go ahead and learn something from this if you dont want to listen anyone on forums
i learnt that Beasty’s fans very very arrogant
The name of the video is “How to Defend the OP Barbican Rush?”
start is so trash, that he made a video to explain, how it’s trash. LOL
playing on smurf with considerably lower skill opponent. Nice job.
meanwhile, much lower skill gap with same civs HRE vs China
what you get, if skill gap is close:
Twitch (1:41)
But great idea how to easily win 5 games in 1vs1. Hope, i do not meet Beasty who is smurfing…
I can play, while Beasty stream to dodge his smurf.
Any cheese should be ■■■■■■ off from the game.
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I wonder about that. If I was his fan I would be constantly watching his streams etc, but im not. He is great player and good streamer tho not type I would be fan for. So I really wonder about that who is arrogant here and not.
Yes player CAN win with the strategy and there is nothing wrong with it. And yes it can work in tournaments against pro players which is nothing different from any other strategy. If it was OP we would see it all the time, vast majority of matches, but we don’t. Why is that? Why don’t you ask it for yourself. How many games were played in golden league? How many times BBQ rush was done? I can tell right now even without checking it was probably less used strategy in tournament. Why is that? Because its cheese and like all cheese if it fails to achieve what it means to be achieved then player who does the rush is so much behind that its insanely hard to come back if not impossible…
This will be pointless but in sake of saying ill type it anyway. The archery range was build in horrible spot when BBQ rush was spotted. MarineLord could’ve build it to much safer spot meaning he would’ve gotten lot more archers out and been able to deny all new towers. So he made mistake and got punished for it. top of that demuslim spent like 30-40 seconds to move 11 villagers from the base meaning he lost TONS of resources for doing it. If 1 villager gathers around 40 resources per minute then its like 200-300 resources lost for traveling alone which is huge advantage to marinelord then all the buildings and slowed down song dynasty. With all the towers and upgrades etc demuslim spent well over 1k resources maybe closer to 2k so yeah. Huge investment and barely was able to win. Seems “op”
So just because it was used once or twice in series it cannot be considered “op” and its not because its super simple to counter and work around.
The beastys video. Yes there is most likely skill difference, but thats no surprise because he is one of the best players in world and very rarely there is someone who is better than him.
Ahaa so this is the issue. So its not that strat is op but its because you dont like cheeses. Thats your personal thing and is irrelevant to balance which means you want game to be exactly as you want. Which even further supports the fact that you shouldn’t talk about balance when you take biased stance against them. Just like you took with FL. You refused to listen better players and their advices and constant moaning over things that were irrelevant and same thing happens here.
If you don’t like cheesing then just defend against it and go win the game. Its not that hard and BBQ rush is huge investment and risk and it hardly ever works if player knows what to do and doesn’t make massive mistakes.
There will never be any RTS game that doesn’t have some form of cheese, because it will always exist and if you fail to scout it you deserve to lose to it. Simple as that
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TR is not OP, and has always been a viable tactic in most RTS.
But defending against TR has always been hard since release, and at the current meta TR is too dominant and awarding. Remind you, BeastyQt who claimed TR is a joke lost to 3DBee Barbican rush before as well, while ML just lost in Golden League.
Is it interesting to watch/play towers only in a row? Give a tower with several spears, and you either spent much more resource on Archer + Ram, or Archer + many scouts + pull villager which is also much more expensive than the towers.
Melee units providing additional arrows in tower is unreasonable. Nor does the HP of tower in dark/feudal age. While towers cost 100 wood & building time, your adversary needs to pull villagers to another resource which cost much more than the building time. Most civs have to pay 50 for the additional gathering building. With only 75 resource you can totally dominate a part of enemy base in Feudal.
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You do understand what dominant means? If it was dominant we would see china as rank 1 civ so why isn’t that the case?
Overall ranking lowest once again. China never been top tier civ and its not now either. Also China has one of the weakest feudal ages which has not changed ever. Followed by fact that at platinum league or higher china has 3rd lowest winrate.
And China is basically one of the best civs to do TR thanks to building speed and yet they’re underperforming.
So what if Beasty lost to barbican rush? Just because its cheese tactic that has high risk to backfire. It doesn’t mean that best players cant lose to it. I can tell you in fact that no player can win any tournament by using TR as their main tactic. It will never work.
TR isn’t strong, but it STILL get you a win. Strongest play in terms of winning any tournament is to have huge variety different things from cheese to macro plays so it makes player unpredictable.
Is it interesting to have one dimensional gameplay where everyone just does same tactic? TR is not dominant tactic thats being used at pro level and never will be because its too risky. If it works it lets rusher be ahead but at the same time if it fails then that player losses. Pro players are not going to gamble on risky tactic. They might mix it here and there to make them more unpredictable and surprise opponent which is part of esports and is great.
Knowing that players only do standard play is extremely dull and boring. Yes if high level plays would constantly be TR then it would get boring but so does standard play which is by far more dominant at highest level rn than anything else.
And so wrong.
If you cant garrison units to tower then whats the point of tower?
Tower costs 100 wood + building + travel time for villagers. Relocating villagers costs 50wood + building + travel time which is true but you’re forgeting the fact that the rusher has A LOT more downtime than defender because they need to frog leap towers which results them to build a lot more towers than just 1 on each resource line which again makes it a lot more costly and then followed by fact that those villagers that are pulled to do the TR are building majority time so if 10 villagers is pulled and 10 is building stuff its close to 400 resources per minute lost which is by far greater amount what defender losses.
With what 75 resources are you talking about? Tower costs 100 wood and upgrade costs 50 stone and 25 gold. So if we go only with these numbers its 125 resources used by person who rushes on EACH tower.
If they rush your gold and you’re not looking to go fast castle then you can give up on gold which gives you 175 resource lead. If you place your wood line properly if possible you can force opponent to do 2 towers before relocating which leaves you to 300 resource lead. If they rush your berries then you can relocate under TC and use sheep (unless chinese cuz then u have to build mill anyway) which leaves defender 175 resource on lead.
And this is only if they do 1-2 TR which isn’t even the case because they keep towering and defenders lead can expand to easily to 1.5-3k resources lead and if you cant get ahead with that resource amount then its your own fault
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Yes, it is interesting to see TR because it really doesn’t happen all that often. If you take out that option you will end up in a boring game with less strategies than before. What players need are more not less options and some pro winning against another pro using TR with china having an overall low winrate just shows that the strategy seems to be balanced very well.
Apart from that I totally agree with everything @BdelloidBore5 says. I find it very confusing that there’s so many people who want to get rid of strategies in a strategy game. Ideally there would even be more options, also in terms of micro to avoid having static games.
I can tell you the reason why they want to get rid of them. They dont like to play against or use them by themselves. On these forums too many players are not considering about balance but they want to nerf things because they dont like them which is very biased opinion to have.
Game has already lost some strategies and units because of ridiculously developers listen to them and nerf things.
Things shouldn’t be nerffed other than in most extreme cases but to find solution how to create counter play to something. TR has already good counter play which is archers + relocation of villagers. Mongol TR was lot different because how many bonuses mongols had to benefit from early aggression. They did it cheaper, got resources and had free production and no wood cost on housing etc.
Lets look at another strategy that was mainly used in TGs which was FL. What happened to them? They were completely butchered to ■■■■ tier unit that has no viability at any level. So yeah great job by devs listening casuals and nerffing them instead re working or creating counter play even tho there was already counterplay which seemed to hard for some players.
And actually we need TR to stay in game because like you said it well. Its a strategy game and it needs many different strategies not just build base for 50mins and then fight one battle middle of map and winner wins.
Have to say that im extremely unhappy on how Mongols were nerfed. I used to like them when the game came out but stopped playing them as their TR and the overall civ design were OP. Instead of nerfing the TR or giving other civs more abilities to deal with the towers they nerved the Mongols entire early aggression ability by reducing their early ovoo stone income.
Now it seems to be a fast castle or two tc civ that really hasn’t got much to do anymore with early aggression although the civ description says so. This should never have happened in my opinion.
Beuh man… i onow you’re arguing against a ton of posters at thr same time, so ill give you some leeway. However… you originally said that BBQ/TR sucks!!! I took issue with your choice of words. sucks?!!
THEN YOU went in on how something can suck but still works… so then i questioned your definition of “sucks before works…” you then attempted to give me a gaming history lesson where you referenced high risk strats that appear simple aka CHEESY strats used at the TOP level by top players??? By definition… if a top player things a strategy is viable especially viable in a tournament with fame and money on the line… i dont think it’s proper to refer to said CHEESY strat as a SUCK strat??? Especially when they win… with said cheese.
Next lets look at some data.
China win rate at the plat+ rank in the 5-9min game duration window is 57.7%!!! Now we know that HASS to be a BBQ/TR bc there isnt ■■■■ else china could do in 5-9min to win the game??? Does 57% suck to you?
Now to be fair we don’t know how many games start off as a bbq/tr but does NOT end in 9min? So it coud be that the majority of bbq/tr end up in the 10-30min lower than 50% win rate? Maybe? Hmmm. Still we dont know ho many start a meta BO either… so its hard to read the data beyond the 9min mark.
So i offer up my own data as a suggestive of what happens with aggressive bbq/tr china. Which is almost exclusively how i play the game. The info isnt to show how good or bad i am BUT to show you how my particular aggressive playstyle fairs against comparable competition.
Look up Mebak. I play china exclusively in rank. I open up BBQ/TR 90% of the time. Notice my early win rates from 5min to 19min are all above 50% EVEN against french, king of feudal and mongols jack of all trades. The strat is simple. vs HRE? Deny gold gg go next. vs french deny safe woodline then go into mega spearman mass, if they cant raid you and cant afford sufficient archer, gg go next. Vs mongol deny stone or gold if not both, the longer mongols is kept in feudal vs china the worse it gets for mongols.
All in all i wish to negate your claim that BBQ/TR sucks.
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Just because something sucks it doesn’t mean that it cannot work. Its not reliable strategy that allows you to win tournaments or series. It can win you A GAME, but its not something you can use constantly and get wins.
Ladder is completely different story thanks to players are not playing there with full focus (pro players) because its impossible to play at best possible focus for long periods of time so we see them only doing their very best at tournaments.
Dude its a high risk strategy that might work or doesn’t and if it doesnt its instant loss. Player has very little to chance come back after investing so heavily on something that is risky which you clearly don’t understand. Yet we see all kind different cheeses constantly. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t. If you know anything about RTS and its esport scene especially SC then you would know there is plenty of different cheeses but none of them can be used to such length that it wins championships.
Sure lets look at that.
plat+ rank has 59 games (5-9min mark) played as of me typing this with 57% winrate. How the fuck is 59 games good sample size? Dude I have played one 4v4 and did 199 villagers and now I got 100% winrate. So it must be next level strategy. Also I can tell you rn unless opponent just gives up and leaves because they get BBQ/TR there is no way to have enough resources to get enough army to finish 2 landmarks and multiple towers up. Its mathematically impossible. Also I can hit castle at 7-9min mark even when getting rushed with towers.
Tell me how many times was BBQ rush used in golden league and how many matches were played and how many times BBQ rush failed / won the game? I have no answers cuz I didn’t bother watching it, but I can bet that its very small portion of games that were played.
Your elo in ranked is 1k and in quickmatch 1.3k. I can in fact tell you rn its gameplay issue for your opponents and they’re not acting according and losses because of it.
I see English doing TR most often in 2v2 and whenever it happens to me and they TR me its free win. I have not lost single time. Im excited to see the time when I get BBQ rushed by chinese player but its been like 3-4 months since I experienced it and its only time when I got rushed and I lost game. Why? Because I sucked and played poorly.
I don’t understand clearly that high risk means it unlikely you’ll comeback if strat initially fails?..
I’m convinced you are the person that lacks comprehension and has the inconsistent definitions.
So everybody the new definition of a strat that sucks is one that can work but you canNOT use exclusively to win series and tournaments… nevermind OUR definition of SUCK that means the strat isnt viable AT ALL or has a very LOWW success rate…NOPE!!! SUCK strat now means CANNOT win series with…
(your definition of “suck strat”, SUCKS!!!)
Also ppl go to aoe4world.com for yourself… filter rank games for plat+ and SEEE for yorself that more than 59 games have been played vs CHINA…and that there are 119? Games played vs china in the plat+ within the 5-9min game duration window…
Next let’s look at your analysis of my data from your expertise…with ZERO data of your own to suggest your point… so i present personal data in the order of 600+ rank games given a very specific playstyle…and you admit, the playstyle is DIFFICULT to deal with given the skill level my player base is at??? Yeah? Hmmm. But then you brush it off as if its a problem that doesn’t persist beyond my skill level PRESENTING ZERO DATA to evidence your point? We just got to take your word for it??
Lastly… my skill level in rank has me in platinum… plat makes up the top 92% of players? Somethijg like that… if my playstyle is hard for the top 92% of players to play against what does that say for the BBQ/TR vs the lower 92% of players?
NOTHING you’ve suggested so far has actual DATA to substantiate your claims? It’s jist YOU talking stating “thus sayth the high rank player”‽‽
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