Suggestions to further improve balance

China’s issues is you have to go song dynasty to be competitive and song is not cheap, therefore it pigeon holes you into set timing/defensive boom AND most civs can exploit this. All these ideas really boost China’s already established mid late game.

Change BBQ to unlock zhuge nu AND make it an archer range that can only train zhuge nu!!! Now!!! You have an extremely oppressive opening option as well as an even stronger defensive poster. Heck let’s get creative!!

BBQ can now patch units at full price upfront of either 2 zhuge nu & 1 spearman but takes 30s to train. Or 2 horsemen at full price but takes 35s to train. (Similar concepts from aoe3).

China needs legit early aggression options not more singular progression paths into defensive booms. IMO.


I like the idea of turning BBQ into a defensive + production building that can train unit in batch. With this change CN can be competitive the moment they hit Feudal age!
This sounds nice on paper, however, there needs to be an eco boost behind it to make this whole idea works. That being said, I still think IO cost needs to be reduced to 50F 50G, start out with an IO trained and IO pop cap increased to at least 6.
If 1 HRE prelate costs 100G (1 prelate is effectively 2 IOs), receives a free starting Prelate and no pop cap on prelate, I don’t see why IO can’t be buffed in this direction.

1 prelate is not equal to 2 IO’s in practice. Prelates make you gather faster; aka depletion faster; IO’s give you extra resources. IO’s efficiency is a true 20% increase to all gather rates, meanwhile prelate’s inspiration is 40% but doesnt translate into a 40% overall yield (although it still quite high).

With the Idea I suggest going Song Dynasty WOULD be your eco backing as song is worth 1.5 vil que and granaries.

  • A prelate is not EXACTLY 2 IOs but would be VERY CLOSE to 2 IOs,
  • An IO is definitely 50% more expensive than a prelate at the moment.
  • Moreover, resource depletion is not relevant in early to mid game.

Alternatively could increase supervision to 30% from 20%.

In conclusion, I strongly believe buffing IO would bring CN early game to a better spot than now.

An alternative solution is derived from your idea, CN needs to get Song to be competitive, but Song is too expensive early game thus every civ can punish CN for that. An easy solution is to just reduce the cost to unlock Song. While solving the problem, this translates to CN early game plan being fast Song 100% every time so I’d still prefer buffing IO instead.

Overally, I see that CN lacks options for early aggression so they are kinda forced into defensive boom, but this wouldn’t work against every maps and every civs, as some civs can rush them down and other civs would just out boom them. CN is just in a really weird spot right now.

The IO has more functionality than a prelate in terms of econ; Between collecting taxes supervising for faster research and production and supervising for 20% bonus resources, I believe that’s why the IO’s more expensive than a prelate. However your ideas directly improves the Economic standpoint of China which still would play BEST into a fast Song and maybe 2TC/FC defensive play. For aggression play style you don’t necessarily need an eco, RATHER to be fair you SHOULD NOT be able to full eco AND be ultra aggressive! I believe you been playing the game long enough to remember when Mongols could fast Feudal and constantly double archer ram push WHILE at the same time going 2nd TC and/or Fast Castle immediately behind the ram push??? NOT AT ALL FAIR.

Your idea of making China eco ram up even faster would lean toward that direction, IMO. This why I was hoping for an EITHER OR (go BBQ and forfeit optimal eco progression but gain quick access to a military production and discount on batched units) or (go Imperial Academy which is meta now and pop out IO’s on your way to Song Dynasty play).

I don’t think china needs buff in early aggression, sorry.

They are already capable of boom pretty fast, and if you don’t wanna boom you can do as any other civ and make barracks and units to be aggressive.

China players tend to think that they MUST be able to get Song at the same time that they can be aggressive… Sorry?

As french, mongol, abbasid, delhi, and any other civ, if you want early aggression you don’t make a second TC, you do barracks, stables, archery and do units as fast as you can.

Currently china is in a super spot in imperial, and he’s not bad in castle age when getting Song and a single more TC, that equals to other civs as having 3TC.

As Abbasid, for example, you can be early aggressive doing spears and archers, with rams, or you can try to 3TC boom (1400 resources, wood and stone) that equals to Song+2TC (1300 resources, food, gold, wood, stone) boom from chinese.

The prelate can also pick up relic and capture sacred site in terms of econ, while also be able to help defense by inspiration and healing. I think it’s fair if they cost the same.

Their foodstuffs reduce villager cost by 50%, that’s the equivalent of 5000+ food saved till mid game! They also gather super fast from berry.

Every civ has some kind of bonuses early game but CN falls behind in terms of this which is backed by statistics.

100 villagers are 2500 food saved… I think no one will do 200 villagers or more in normal games (ranked, custom, quick match with standard population limits).

BTW, yes, Abbasid boom is pretty good, but don’t forget IO’s, you can put them in berrys, sheeps, deers, etc… Or in wood, stone, gold, that you can’t as Abba.

I still thinking the same. Chinese is weak in feudal cause they lack of any unique unit without invest in other landmark and they haven’t heavy units. I will be in favor to free Zhu ge nu from Song, and give it till the beginning of feudal age, but no give economic advantages.

I’va also noticed that no one uses IO’s to production, putting one or 2 IO’s in barracks or archery in feudal is insane, you have not to spend in another barrack or archery and you can relocate the IO’s to eco places when not need the more unit production.

Currently if you let china to boom or you can’t destroy his eco from feudal, you are pretty much dead if they reach imp with a strong economy.

First impressions from the PuP:

HRE got done dirty in the PuP.

  • Relic gold is massively reduced, which hurts HRE the most. Ecos of other civs, especially English (enclosures) remain untouched. They get insane gold from farms (60 farms = 1k gpm), while HRE, who are based upon relics due to having the worst additional TC scaleability, will now get 800 gold for 5 relics. If relics are nerfed, other passive gold incomes need to be nerfed accordingly.

  • There is no compensation for this.

  • Fire Stations is incredibly bad. It’s the worst special tech for ships now in comparison. 10 hp after 20 seconds for not being in combat is really bad. It’s trash. It’s almost useless and not worth the cost. This is Chivalry in bad.

In general PuP Hickups:

  • Firelancers were buffed heavily. They now have ranged armor like horsemen and become harder to kill. Especially when they raid your base. I do not understand this change. This is a toxic unit that becomes even more toxic now.

  • Dark Age spears were buffed to also better deal with Vanguard MAA… And then Vanguard MAA get buffed as well. What is this madness? That’s just pointless as both units got +10 hp and +1 dmg. KEKW

  • Unique ship techs are insanely imbalanced. Fire Stations is total and utter ■■■■, the Abbasid 10% speed is also trash, but Chinese Baochads get Nest of Bees emplacements… What the hell?

  • The new infantry charge seems powerful and might give infantry more relevance in general. I think this is rather positive. Infantry now does not “waste” their charge as it was reduced to 1 tile, so they will be more reliable to reach their target once they charge now. 7 seconds of charging is huge.

  • Tower of Victory is now very powerful. It’s an amazing landmark now, unless the influence does not get extended by adding barracks to it. Have not tested this.

Yeah, that’s it. General changes impacted HRE the most. HRE’s core strength was nerfed heavily and the civ will now be rather chanceless vs economic powerhouses like Abbasid, Chinese, lategame English. Especially Abbasid and English do not need relics. I think the relic gpm reduction from 100 to 80 was absolutely unnecessary and provides more issues than it solves. Esp. when less gold reliant civs or their passive gold generation remains untouched. This actually ruins HRE, whose relic gold ■■■■■■■■ keeps getting changed and changed and nerfed and nerfed and was actually in a rather okayish spot lately. But now it’s much worse and I do not understand why it was changed this heavily. Rus Warrior monks are now also produced faster, which makes it even harder for HRE in this MU to even collect relics. And HRE has a bad lategame. There is nothing to offset this hit on their gold generation.

Again. This civ relies heavily on relics. That’s their thing. They are gold reliant. And I think they are ruined now on the PuP. 3 relics is now 480 gpm opposed to 600. No civ has been nerfed as heavily as the HRE.

HRE main? Kekw… i like to introduce you to mongols ans china BOTH civs have received way more nerfs than HRE? WTF? And in the case if china they are still at the bottom half of all ranking…

But some of us do not have acccess to PUP; can you add some detail to new relic gold rates? New tower of victory buff? Etc etc? Lot of the stuff you mentiones are vague; like you didnt specify if the HRE relic gold generation was woth the regnitz cathedral or not?

Fire lancers need a buff!! This is well deserved as the unit is locked behind DOUBLE castle, effectively a min imperial unit; most decent players do not even go yuan dynasty until AFTER actual imperial which means you let china go imperial and double castle then wanna ##### that he’s ransacking your stonewal-LESS base? Kekw

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Fire Lancers are insane already. You can win lategame with only spamming them as they are just food heavy. You can throw them in anywhere, they are fast, they ruin siege, they ruin viallagers, they ruin buildings. Their Spirit Way buff keeps them alive better already. And now they end up with 7 ranged armor instead of 3. No, that’s insanity. This unit finally was kinda balanced, their performance vs buildings was just too great. And now they are even stronger.

This is a unit not meant to fight, but to raid. And they do that exceptionally well already. This change is completely stupid and needs to be reverted.

I updated my line to the ToV landmark. I have not tested it. But if influence gets extended by adding barracks, this is a very good change. If the influence stays the way it is like it is for French keeps, then this change is actually a nerf. I don’t know more yet.

Relic gold generation was reduced from 100 to 80 for all civs. That means HRE with Regnitz gets only 160 gold per relic. HRE normally aims towards 3 relics, while every further relic is a welcome bonus. Now they need 4 relics to have the somewhat same effect. This reduced HRE effectiveness by roughly one relic. And since all the other civs do not rely on relics (at least not as much) but consider them nice to have (or “better you than the oppo”), this is a massive HRE nerf which will render them a much less powerful civ now. This is their powerspike. Their feudal gameplay is bad compared to other civs, their only viable approach is to rather fast castle (naked or with some units), but the reason for it was nerfed significantly. HRE will now actually need to go imp even faster, which also became harder now. They will drop down in popularity and win rate, should this ever go live, because there is nothing to offset this big of a nerf. HRE’s powerspike was nerfed, while their lategame eco got ruined. Landsknechte are also even less cost efficient now, because you have way less gold now. This is bad across the board. One possible way to offset this would be an imp tech that accelerates relic gold generation for HRE. Otherwise this civ will be ###### Their lategame is already one of the worst, now their strongest civ bonus got nerfed by a lot. I really do not understand the devs here. Not at all.

If you nerf the core eco of a civ in regards of passive gold generation, you need to also nerf other means of it. The English just need to reach imp to get a much better passive gold generation. They do not even need to bother going for map control. If you nerf something that applies to all civs, while there is this one civs that really relies on it, you nerfed this one civ way more than the rest. And if you do not offset this, this civ will just be worse. There was no specific reason for the nerf but a general one. They did not say they nerfed relic gpm because of HRE. They mentioned a reason that applies to all civs. But HRE actually is the only civ that really suffers from this.

My point is: HRE was nerfed way more in comparison by a change that applies to all civs, without HRE being the reason for the nerf. That makes no sense and actually reduced the effectiveness of HRE to a level in which they might not be competitive anymore. Their gameplay was nerfed by a lot through a general change.

And what are you talking about? China only received buffs, not a single nerf. Mongols also were not nerfed.

Chinese (CHI)

  • Fixed bug where CHI Grenadiers would not display proper visual effects when in shallow waters.

  • Fixed an issue where the Great Wall Gatehouse Landmark could be permanently destroyed by destroying the walls surrounding it.

  • Added two new hotkeys to Select and Cycle Imperial Officials.

  • Barbican of the Sun Landmark help text now indicates it can be upgraded with weaponry.

  • Imperial Official hotkey is now remappable in the Imperial Academy Landmark.

  • Reduced Reload Drills Research time from 90 seconds to 60. Cost reduced from 1000 resources to 500.

  • Fixed a bug where the Imperial Official could not manually drop off taxes at expansion Town Centers.

  • Granary

  • Now contains economic technologies.

  • Now can be selected with economy building shortcuts.

  • Spirit Way Landmark research speed bonus increased from 100% to 150%.

  • Fire Lancer

  • Fire Lancer ranged armor increased from 0 to 3.

  • Elite Fire Lancer ranged armor increased from 0 to 4.

  • Naval Rework:

  • (NEW) Thunderclap Bombs (Replaces Extra Hammocks):

  • Cost set to 200w 500g

  • Research time set to 45s

  • Baochuans gain a Nest of Bees Emplacement

  • Replaces the technology Extra Hammocks, which has been moved to other civilizations

Mongols (MON)

  • Fixed incorrect team color showing up on Mongol Ovoo.

  • Units should no longer be able to get inside of or get stuck in large stone deposits when building and cancelling an Ovoo on them.

  • Ovoo no longer affects villager counter.

  • Piracy technology for the Mongols now gives resources every time and gives the correct amount.

  • Villagers no longer attempt to construct an unpacking Mongol building.

  • Fixed an issue where command card buttons duplicated after researching the Monastic Shrines technology from the Prayer Tent.

  • Fixed a bug where players could build Ovoos on the same stone deposit.

  • Added new hotkey to select all packed buildings.

  • Raid help text now includes buildings that are destroyed while under construction.

  • Early Horseman health increased from 100 to 110.

  • Early Horseman damage increased from 7 to 8.

    • Developer Note: We improved the dark age units to encourage more strategic options early in the game.
  • Fixed a bug with Silver Tree text where it was stating a 100% bonus to build speed instead of the correct value of 50% faster production.

  • Traction Trebuchet range increased from 13 to 14.

  • Naval Rework:

    • Piracy:

      • Research time reduced from 60 to 30 seconds

      • Gain 25w and 25g per killed enemy ship

      • (Currently does not work for kills with Incendiary Ships)

He meant China and Mongols have been heavily nerfed in the past because you said:

About fire lancers please specify if you are talking about team games, because in 1v1 you can’t just spam fire lancers freely. In team games if you turtle and you allies defend you then it is as you say. I was surprised about the unit getting buffed but it is way too soon to claim they are broken. The relic nerf is very significant but also lets see some games first, i do agree that was kinda unnecesary.

And about tower of victory, every building inside the mosque or madrasa influence trains infantry units with the bonus. I am not sure if the tower itself has to be in the mosque influence but that shouldn’t be a problem, overall a great quality of life change.

And about the infantry charge, could you explain what it means? i don’t remember what was that mechanic about.


That tower of victory bufff is huuuge if it works like you say; bc this was the mid to late gamecissue with tower of victory having to first rally your units from all over your base to get a buff thereby delaying your push!!!

Speaking of delhi did they fix all the remaining dlehi bugs? For example they recently changed all delhi imp upgrades down from 15 times to 12 times HOWEVER in live game all eco imp techs STILL trains at 15???

Not really, they did adress something like that in the previous patch (Elite Archer research time 12x instead of 15x) but the current bugfixes are only this:

Delhi Sultanate (SUL)

  • Infantry will no longer auto assist in construction of walls, before Compound of the Defender Landmark is built.

  • Fixed an exploit allowing multiple free Scholars to be provided when two first Mosques are produced simultaneously.

  • Clarified the Dome of Faith Landmark’s tooltip - It produces scholars cheaper but at a slower production speed.

  • Fixed a bug where research progress at docks wasn’t saved when the technologies were cancelled.

  • Houses built after researching Reinforced Foundations will now correctly add and remove the correct amount of population.

  • Fixed a bug where Scholars garrisoned in a Madrasa were immediately killed when the building was destroyed.

  • Scholars will now be removed from the global Scholar count when a Mosque or Madrassa with garrisoned Scholars is destroyed.

  • Forced March move speed bonus is no longer removed until the unit has committed an attack.

  • Tower of Victory now buffs all infantry built from buildings in influence instead of units who move near the landmark

  • Naval Rework:

    • (NEW) Manuscript Trade (Replaces Patchwork Repairs):

      • Research time set to 30s

      • Allows Scholars to garrison in Docks, each Scholar increases production speed of local Docks by 20% & if connected to the Delhi influence, garrisoned Scholars also contribute to global research

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Yeah, well. I was talking about nerfs in this PuP. HRE was nerfed the very most of all civs, although there was zero reason for it. Their main power was reduced heavily. And if we are talking about the past, HRE (together with Delhi) was bugged into unplayablitly for the first 3 to 4 months. HRE turned up starting in April/May and slowly became better. Now on PuP they are trash tier again. They have the worst unique tech for ships, it’s completely useless and weak af. And their main advantage was reduced by a global change, they were nerfed without being the specific target of the nerf and now they might not even be competitive anymore. The relic bonus was the big thing going for them. They already have a very hard time against lategame Chinese, Abbasids, English and Rus. Now they are close to unplayable, because there is no lategame comp that is exceptionally powerful for them. They were able to compete, because the relic gold is paramount for them. The relic nerf, however, hits HRE twice as hard, but there is no compensation. Their eco is also being oversold all the time. Sure, the prelate buff is ##### ### it’s not like every villager is affected at all times. Calling it a flat 40/50% bonus is plain wrong.

Also China was not nerfed, they were revamped. They lost their insane lategame, but became better all across the board. They became less of a rofl stomp comp lategame civ, but much more versatile altogether. For some it’s a nerf, for me it made China just way more interesting and better to play in all stages of the game. I also consider them to be actually stronger than before. And Mongols started off superior and needed a lot of the nerfs they received. But latest patches actually started buffing them again.

I am saying it here and right now. If this goes live, HRE will be the worst civ of them all again. No doubt about that. For lower leagues it probably won’t change much, because many ppl lose to feudal HRE and that is nothing but a low league thing. You can feel on PuP already how much worse HRE is now. They lose 40 gpm per relic and were not overpowered before, but actually in a good place. But not anymore, they really really suck now. And I have not even begun to understand the potential of the new civs. Esp. Malians with their Warrior Scouts and poison arrow archers seem to be ridiculously op. The scouts heal like crazy even in mid fight and actually gain slightly reduced horsemen stats. And the poison arrows stack into oblivion. Malian archers kill everything. It’s overpowered. When 20 archers fire one volley at one target, the target receives 20 times the 3 dot debuff for 6 seconds. That means 60 dmg extra after 6 seconds after only one volley. The next volley adds another 60 dmg that ignores armor and adds to the previous poison dmg. So it’s 60 (minus the poison dmg that was already dealt until the next volley) + 60 (minus the poison dmg that was already dealt until the next volley) +60 and so on. 20 Malian archers kill a Tower Elephant in 4 volleys. It’s completely broken. Ottomans seem to be more reasonable, but they might also offer some broken stuff. It’s too early to tell.

And regarding the infantry charge: On live infantry charges the opponent as soon as they’re only 2 tiles away from the target. That means they gain a movement speed buff. Some infantry units become as fast as cavalry for 5 seconds. Charge has an internal CD that you cannot see anywhere. It’s something beyond 20 seconds I think. Now with the new changes, infantry starts charging later when they are only 1 tile away from the target, but they also charge for 7 instead of 5 seconds. This means that charging infantry is much more likely to actually reach their targets. It helps especially against siege and slow moving infantry. But they also need to be closer to actually start the charge.

That way charging will be rarer but more successful. Because right now you can have infantry charge and never reach their target, because the charge was a-click wasted on let’s say horsemen. So it was on a CD when it actually mattered. And I feel like that this is now much better because it’s much more reliable to actually reach the target once the charge goes off.

However it also means that gap closing in the sense of getting close from further away is now worse for melee infantry. The charge itself is now better, but the range to start the charge is reduced. That has pros and cons.

Oh i see, thank you for the detailed answer.

Regarding the relic nerf would you rather revert the change or compensate HRE?

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I am not too sure. One or the other will definitely be necessary. Because if it stays like this, we will not see HRE anymore. Barely on ladder and never in tournaments.

I consider the relic change to be completely unnecessary. I don’t get it and I don’t understand the reasoning. It just buffed all the civs that do not really rely on relics and nerfed HRE heavily and Rus slightly.

i’m just going to talk about mongol changes, i think none is good.
-Improved Biology. Stone and enhancement are not even used because you need the stone for tower upgrade. Improve Biology is ok remember mongol empire is the true (Cavalry Empire) they literally fight with 90% cavalry based army.

  • Springald change is ok.
    -Kurultai i would prefer to change the atack aura efect (not the healing) around the Khan so it impruve Khan’s suport role.
    -Khaganate Palace. Would be and option if aloud you to build keeps and it self been a Keep. so u can go for more kinda diferent between free unit White Stupa and more like map control. Remember ofc Mongol build Keeps like wtf devs… xd Is a matter of time.
  • Towers … i think simply as far as you are from your main TC , towers building speed
    decreases, so we can just move away with tower rush.
    -Mangudai. cost 80 food 40 gold, and now have 4 tiles range. ##### ## ## is supposed to be the main army )

Mongol Improved Professional Scouts should enable Boar picking instead of the actual useless stats.

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