Suggestions to further improve balance

Idk about boars but it should be useful!!!I will say the overal nerf to eco cost DOES benefit the stone version eco upgrades for Mongols since now 7.5% (at least for the first tier) is worth 150 res!

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After testing a little bit on the PuP, the relic nerf is very notable for HRE. Everything is much slower and you feel the lack of gold. 3 relics are not good enough anymore.

So… If relics are supposed to be nerfed in general, but are not supposed to also kinda ruin the core bonus of HRE, then the HRE relic bonus should be upped to 250% (1 relic = 200 gpm) and it’d be okay again. Or HRE could get a civ bonus that increases relic gold by 50%, which would make relics give 120 gold as baseline for HRE, while Regnitz would bring it up to 200 gpm again. That’d mean with Regnitz nothing changed and Burgrave became a tad bit more viable in general. If that is not the case and HRE is supposed to be nerfed by the general relic nerf (and again, the relic change hits HRE twice as hard), then HRE should get some kind of compensation for this. Otherwise it’s just not good enough anymore and will probably make several match ups extremely hard if not impossible to win for HRE.

And Fire Stations is the most useless thing ever. Even before Benediction. It gives you close to nothing. You are better off to save the res for this tech.

Still at it . How long has it been now? A year? A year of you pushing for HRE buffs.? How’s that worked out for you?

You mean like before every nerf/non buff? No this time will make them unplayable?

Maybe give it some time. Be patient. Maybe time will prove you wrong… Again…

Further PuP experiences:

  • Javelin Throwers are good against everything. I think their base dmg is too high and their bonus dmg as well. At max upgrades they deal 18 + 13 = 31 dmg to ranged. They have a greater base attack than longbows thus are way too effective against their counter (armored units, horsemen). I think their base dmg should not exceed the one of archers, cap it at 13. A bonus dmg of 12 sounds reasonable as well (= 25 instead of 31 dmg to ranged). Javelin throwers are fast, have a great range, counter ranged like nothing else, have high pierce armor… There needs to be some weakness and that should be dmg against non-ranged, while dmg against ranged gets reduced slightly. Javelins are definitely too strong, you actually don’t need poison arrow archers, if you mass them, because they actually beat everything. And they meeeeeeelt Tower Eles as if they don’t cost 1k res.

  • Donso Spearmen throw should not have bonus dmg to cav. It’s too easy to pick up cav from range with them, they trade way too well.

  • Passive food and gold generation of Malians seems very if not too strong. And it doesn’t take any pop. There needs to be some tuning, I think.

  • Ottoman Vizier sheep bonus should increase all res gathered by 10% instead of just mining. I feel like even though there are free units and plenty of them, the Ottoman eco needs a tad bit more. And I think 10% overall will help them a lot.

  • The trade speed with the age IV landmark could be reduced to 30% and/or the trade bonus gold Vizier as well. 40% more gold plus 40% more speed is absolute insanity if you can make it work, which is in general true for team games. 30% + 30% stil is very powerful and top tier trade of all civs. And while we are at it, the Malian trade bonus also becomes very insane and I think toll outpost bonus should be reduced to 8% down from 10%, so Malian trade maxes out at 140% instead of 150%. I think both new civs are a bit overdone in regards of trading.

  • If Ottomans maxed out at 6 military academies in imp instead of 5, their eco together with the overall 10% should be good enough to have them be competitive. Right now I feel like their eco is a tad bit too weak. They’d still have the worst eco, but gain around 1.2k res per min thanks to the academies. Together with the Mehmed artillery landmark, they’d be in very good spot in regards of passive res in form of military units.

  • I actually think Janissaries are fine in their role, if they are used according to it. They are not HCs, they are anti cav that protects and repairs siege. They are cheaper, shoot faster, have lower range, take bonus dmg, deal okay with everything non ranged but really excel vs cav. I think they’re fun and powerful if used correctly and not as an all around unit. They synergize very strongly with the Great Bombard, but have clear weaknesses like low hp and bonus dmg from ranged units. I really wonder, however, why Ottomans do not have horse archers. Especially since they seemed to have them in the trailers.

  • Ships die very fast in the PuP. The counters for each ship are very strong and the harbor defenses, if researched, as well. The food costs seem too high to come back on water from a great loss of fishing ships. It seems like killing fishing ships is way too powerful now and will be the meta of naval battles. And the short lifespan of ships is also why Fire Stations is completely useless. 1 hp every 2 seconds does nothing here. It should be reverted to the old effect or get reworked again. Nobody will ever get this tech, because you waste resources for very close to zero effect. Just like Benediction, which is useless and should be reworked as well as I do not get tired to mention.

@PlumpDucklin Thank you for your comment. I am sorry that you take offense in me being a HRE main as well as enthusiast and trying to suggest changes for them; especially in regards of the way they work. I think they could be better designed or simply lack something else; esp. in imp. I also talk about other civs, but I definitely are more focussed on HRE, since I mainly play them. That’s just how it is. You are free to do you.
The HRE relic bonus has been indirectly nerfed on the PuP and I think it is very understandable to discuss this, because that’s what a PuP is for. HRE needs to get the relics to really come online, but that has been nerfed significantly and feels too weak now as it is their one way of playing and catching up, before Swabia can do its ### dungeon magic. The other ways are considerably weaker. And they do need to get on the map and secure the relics to offset their 1 tc to 2/3 tcs or their 2 tc to 3 tcs until imp. They are always behind in vils and the relic gold is their way of compensating for it, if you didn’t know. Especially compared to the possibilities of the other civs. Abbasids, China and English outperform them in lategame eco and also have better lategame options. And Malians seem to outperform them as well. Economically at least. HRE will need a compensation or a revert for this, because before the nerf they were A-Tier. Not S-Tier. The nerf will make them worse for no apparent or justified reason. The problem with HRE is that their boni are striking and you are quick to call them too strong (200% from relics!!!, 40% faster gather rate!!!, 400% Burgrave!!! HRE OP!!!), while other civs develop their power more slowly and are not as striking at that, although they are actually stronger than HRE, which peaks in castle age and shortly after Swabia imp and then continuously starts to fall off.
But I suggest you just don’t read what I write anymore. Because then I would not have to cope with your presumptuous tone any longer and you’d be less annoyed by me as well. Win-Win in my book.

I think the relic nerf is fair.
Its extremely hard to punish or stop an hre fast castle, and they can get to castle faster than any civ, which means they can get access to relics faster than any civ.
The relic gold makes scale way too fast for other civs to catch up, now at least other civs can keep up with their eco through 2 or more tcs build.
Also it helps making so hre doesnt go imperial so easily.
I am sure if the civ underperforms because of it devs will find a way to compensate them

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The relics need to offset a villager deficit that often is 30+ after 12 to 13 minutes (three nerfed Regnitz relics would be ~15 vils, before it was 18), HRE is very gold reliant and they don’t have anything powerful for imp that would save them money aside from mass towers. The thing is that HRE gets these “villagers” in an instant as soon as the prelates deliver the relics, which gives them a boost from zero to hero. There is no ramping up as you find it in a purely villager based eco. But the boost itself, the effect of it is not too strong. And if you allow HRE to get all 5 relics, you actually deserve to lose the game, although 5 relics does not automatically warrant a win. Abbasids can beat that rather handily even with their no gold units.

It would be fair, if other civ’s passive income was also reduced and some civs were made more gold reliant. Abbasids barely need any gold. They are one of the best civs right now already. The relic nerf buffed them as it nerfed all the gold reliant civs. The English lategame is overpowered, while their castle age is too weak. Now their lategame has also been buffed due to the nerf of relics. And Malians are beyond good and evil when it comes to passive income.

If you consider all this, the nerf for relics itself and in general could be fine… I am really not sure, I personally feel like the nerf is not necessary. But it de facto nerfs the HRE twice and that’s where it becomes an issue. And the reasoning for the nerf has nothing to do with HRE. The relic nerf actually increased the discrepancies between civs and buffed portions of the game that were already too powerful (Abba trash army, English enclosures).

The relic nerf is for some civs not an issue, for some civs it just sucks and for HRE it simply reduced their core strength by a lot. And you feel it very much. If Sacred Sites are nerfed, nobody really cares because all are hit by it equally. Except Delhi. These things need to be kept in mind when something like that is done. A general change has different repercussions on the civs.

There are two S-Tier civs rn. Rus and Abbasids, while you could argue that Rus is a tad bit better even, because they have not a single disadvantageous match up, while Abbas struggle against Rus. Rus was nerfed by the relic nerf, but can easily go for High Trade House and aim for at least 3 relics (you need to build a monastery, but Warrior Monks are produced 10 secs faster now also, so getting 3 relics is in most cases a safe thing for Rus) to actually have the same or even better gpm than before. They’d lose the Abbey advantages, but have also been buffed indirectly by the wild life change making wolves not follow you around forever anymore. That means opponents have a harder time to take wolves off of Rus, because Rus generally has more scouts and the other civs need to also take the dear and collect sheep.

Bottom line is that both civs have either somewhat kept their power or have even been buffed by the new changes. HRE, however, that is a solid A-tier civ rn, has been nerfed significantly and will probably drop down to B or even C because of this, because it is their biggest civ advantage. HRE is nothing without relics. They suck and can’t compete with anybody, because their feudal is also one of the weakest. They need to FC and they need relics. So any change in the relic gold department is a very big deal for HRE.

The English age1 landmark " Abbey of Kings" - the building which heals units , can serve as monastery from age 3, with option to tran monks and store relics

The " Professional Scouts" tech - which allow scouts to carry carcass - this is very interesting feature, but not really worth at the moment - it is too expensive 75W and 275G, I would suggest make it cheaper, and make it available in age 1; also the shift order for scout to hunt deer and bring back to mill/hunting cabin/TC does not work

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Totally agreed with this one.

It makes them unique and fine maybe dmg needs rescale after all.

It needs further testing i guess. Maybe it would be ok.

Agreed in team games especially this one seems op to me as well.

5 Millitary school is ok i guess.6th one could be little op.Needs testing.Im not sure about this one.

Sorry. But anyone would little sense can’t accept this one 11 xD Man Jannis are crap. They are worst unit in aoe4 by far. They take bonus dmg from light cav,bowmen,xbows,towershots,mangonels,cannons,javalineers,Hand cannoneers (simple hc shot deals 74 dmg to jans ) , arbalesters , camel archers,cavarly archers,mangudais ,Chinese unique archers,english villagers !! Yea English villagers…Jans are absolute fragile while being bot that strong or cheap after all…I personally dont touch them anymore…Jans totally need rework. 160 res for this crap ?? Hell no!..Zero upgraded feudal archer does 10 dmg to full upgraded Janny…What they say they counter cavalry …They barely do that. Against Heavy cav they need to git and run which leaves siege equipment off-guard.Against light cav ? Light cav deals bonus dmg to jans to so u gotta hope for the best if they surround you u die. So u need big numbers with jans in that case simple mangonel shot 1 shots most of ur full hp jans even…Jans are absolute garbage .

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Janissaries should have 2 counters. Ranged and mangos/bees. I agree that they are killed too easily. It’s similar with Landsknechte, who do not need to get extra dmg from archers to die quickly. So since Janissaries counter cav, I feel like they should not take bonus dmg from Horsemen. And the bonus dmg from ranged could be reduced to 30% as well, since they are low hp units. 50% bonus dmg is very similar to the bonus damage archers and camel archers deal to light inf, but since the 50% applys to all ranged attacks, it could definitely be reduced a bit. I don’t know if removing it completely would be the right thing. They could easily turn out too strong then.

The thing with Janissaries is that they are very cheap in comparison to actual HCs (160 res vs 240), but have a clearer role and are not all around useful like the HC. The idea is that the Great Bombard offsets their weaknesses, which it does all in all. The GB is quite potent. But it’s hard to get there in a healthy state and up to that point, it’s difficult to make good use of Janissaries. This unit can easily be overbuffed and its availablitly in castle age makes things even more difficult.

Janissaries are not supposed to be the core army. You don’t go ahead and build only them. Relic seems to want to get away from massing gunpowder infantry in the lategame, hence they nerfed the Streltsy in a way that makes it harder to only mass them anymore, which is a very good thing. And Janissaries definitely need a front line of knights, maa and spears. With mehtar their attackspeed is something around 1.5. They deal 28 dmg fully upgraded (CB, camel archer 22). And they deal 48 dmg to cavalry. They deal a lot of dmg if they are protected. But it’d probably be fine to increase their range from 3.5 to 3.75 to have them be more effective.

For their price, they need to be weaker than HCs. Their role of being mainly strong vs cav and as protectors of siege is also fine. But with less sources for extra dmg and a tad bit more range, they could actually be the unit they are supposed to be for 60f/100g. I definitely like the idea of the Janissary’s role.

Again… It is very similar to Landsknechte. They cost the same, but if you move them too close to a castle or a tower, you can lose 1k gold within a second. You can’t build them against everything, but there are some situations in which they excel. In others they totally suck. And if you are behind, they don’t help you, because they just die when they are at a disadvantage. Esp. numberwise. And then there are units that are all around good, which can be built at any time in the game and they will do work.

Janissaries or Landsknechte are not these kinds of units.

Ps.: Maybe Janissaries stay the way they are, but get a toggle option:

All around stance and anti-cav stance

  • they reman unchanged statswise, but in all around stance (placeholder name ofc, that’s not how it should be called) they don’t deal bonus dmg to cav and also lose their weakness to ranged, but not to horsemen

  • while in anti-cav stance they get the bonus dmg to cav and the weakness to ranged, but lose the bonus dmg from horsemen.

What do you think about that?

Let’s discuss things with more respect.

I understand that discussions get heated sometimes, but don’t lose your composure.

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Hey Jaysus. You should also raise the voice on the Horse Archer because that unit absolutely definitely needs to become a common/regional unit.

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