Suggestions to improve the accuracy of Asian Outlaws

Yeah it is too expensive to use.
But it is mercenary instead of outlaws so I didn’t mention it above.

By the way, in my thread about remaking the Asian civs I attached, I even add 3 new Indian mercenary units (Rajput Knight, Gurkha Rifleman, Maratha Light Infantry) as a side effect of making Indian Barracks units more accurate. If you are interested, welcome to check.

Yea the Pindari seems quite accurate. It actually fulfills the purpose and the tag of Outlaw practically and historically as well.

Meanwhile Rajputs as a mercenary is a trippy concept, as there were/are Rajput kingdoms that have stood the test of time. And the biggest state by land area, literally named after them. And as most of Indian history goes, Rajputs have been always involved in defensive wars, so it a not exactly makes a sense to make a Rajput mercenary. Also the title of knight doesn’t suit/goes well after a Rajput.

On the other hand Gurkha is Nepalese, and have proved their might defending against and for the British/Nepalese/Indians, and are more suitable to have a mercenary tag. I’m fine anyways, until and unless there is a skirm unit in barracks.

Maratha light inf can be a decent Idea but still debatable to a smaller extent.

Meanwhile a Jat Lancer is more historically/practically accurate to have mercenary tag. Although there was a resilient Sikh Empire. Still, in later decades, Sikhs/Jats have fought for the British, have turned the tides for very important battles, during both world wars for the Britishers. So a Jat Lancer or some other similar unit from unit in later ages will be more suitable for a mercenary tag.

As far as I know, the Rajputs would provide armies to the rulers of India (Mughals and later the British) as long as the interests of the Rajput nobles were respected. The use of the word “knight” is to emphasize his nobility, a feeling that is not present when the word “cavalry” is used.

In my design, Rajput Knight is an intrepid ranged cavalry mercenary, using a recurve bow and a khanda sword. Having as same statistic values as Yojimbo, and replacing the position of Yojimbo.
Meanwhile, removes Yojimbo to reduce the number of movie tropes for Asian civs.

Btw, Yojimbo, a unit 100% based entirely on stereotypes, literally just means bodyguards, not important enough to be introduced into the game as a unit in my opinion.

It is a pity that the peoples like the Rajputs and Gurkhas with outstanding military exploits is the ordinary units at Barrack. Meanwhile, it is not a good design to bind regular military units to ethnic groups.

The Mughal Empire has historically had its infantry troop, Shamsherbaz and Banduqchi.
Shamsherbaz are renamed from current Rajputs, and were elite heavy infantry companies of highly skilled swordsmen. Banduqchis are the new cheap skirmishers who formed the bulk of the Mughal infantry. Cheap, weak, gathered easily, similar to Strelets and trainable at Barrack in the Commerce Age.

In my design, Maratha Light Infantry is an agile ranged shock infantry with a matchlock or a flintlock musket, good at countering cavalry and shock infantry.

The Maratha Empire army, rival of the Mughal Empire, will use it as their representative in the game, just like Iron Troop representing one of the Qing Dynasty’s rival, Koxinga’s Kingdom of Tungning.

According to the wiki page, Shivaji gave more emphasis to infantry as against cavalry, considering the rugged mountainous terrain he operated in. Further, Shivaji did not have access to the North Indian Mughal dominated horse markets. During this era, the armies of the Marathas were known for their agility due to the light equipment of both infantry and cavalry.

Well Rajput itself is a keyword in itself, is symbolizes a Warrior Clan/Tradition. Rajput Kingdoms have always been at the fore front of waves of, many Invasions attempts, into the subcontinent. and have defended against many of them, even before the Mughals.
When the Mughals were at their Peak, Rajputs were the Rivals of Mughals, and eventually Mughals had to use Treaties and Marital agreements, in order to avoid blood shed that a war with any Renowned Rajput kingdom, could bring upon both parties.
So eventually the peak of Mughal Empire during Akbar’s reign, Many of the Rajputs were posted as top positions in Mughal court and General of Army, etc. Yet !! the Remaining Kingdoms Remained the Arch Rival.

The Stature of Rajputs is similar to Marathas, despite the difference in Size and time frame between them.

Mughal’s greatest strategic achievement was that, at any given moment, they didn’t face combined forces of Marathas and Rajputs.
In fact, Maratha and Rajputs are the two respected Warrior Bloodlines/Ethnicites/Tradition (IDK the exact Word).

Marathas Being Masters of Gorilla warfare tactics and Agility in Deccan, while Rajputs Ruled Thar desert and Rajputana and believed more in fair face to face battles. Just to emphasise, even the game has Tower of victory wonder, that is a Rajput Monument, built 100 years , before introduction of Mughals.
You can expect Rajput forces to be consisted of heavy Cav and Heavy Infantry mostly, and Maratha forces to be more diverse/agile and quirky(in a sense), along with a Formidable Navy so as so, to reconquer and drive away Portugese.


TLDR;
Well, its very hard to pin point what can or cannot be implemented as a mercenary, a Marathan or Rajputana Merc is slightly off the track. As they were independent, active powers of the subcontinent at their respective times periods.

Since the Indian civ is specifically the Mughul Empire, so the Rajputs and Marathans have to be introduced as other units. Mercenary is actually a good way. They can fight with Indians against other civs, and can also fight with others against Indians. Better than being a part of the Indian civ.

You might know that the Chinese civ is specifically the Qing Dynasty (1636 - 1911).

The Porcelain Tower of Nanjing was completed in 1431 during the Ming Dynasty.
The earliest Confucian Academy was established by 124 BCE during the Han Dynasty.
The White Pagoda was constructed during the Yuan Dynasty, and rebuilt later during the Ming Dynasty.
The Temple of Heaven was built in 1420 during the Ming Dynasty.
Only the Summer Palace was mainly expand during the Qing Dynasty.

Basically, the choice of wonders doesn’t care about time and place at all.
Besides, I do not like the stereotype-based wonder mechanics either. These old magnificent buildings should remain in the motherland and home city, not in the new town in the Americas or Africa.
The British won’t build Westminster Abbey in Boston, the French won’t build Notre Dame in Quebec, the Spaniards won’t build Torre del Oro in Mexico, the Russians won’t build the Church of the Savior on Spilled Blood in Alaska…

It is quite fine to be mercenary.

Look at the Iron Troop of Koxinga’s Kingdom of Tungning, an independent kingdom dedicated to fighting the Qing Dynasty and restoring the Ming Dynasty. The villages of ninjas had substantial autonomy and were not ruled by the daimyo while they were active. The Kingdom of Nepal was also an independent force that fought against Qing China and the British East India Company. Not to mention the Swiss Confederation.

Many units that do not belong to existing civs, if they are not suitable as natives, can be introduced into the game as mercenaries, just like Stradiot from Albania, Elmeti from Italy, Kanuri Guard from Kingdom of Kanem-Bornu, Sennar Horseman from Sennar Sultanate, and original Fusilier and Hackapell from Sweden and Finland.

I always thought indians represent the british raj as they have sepoys and the campaign is about the sepoy rebellion.

Actually Mughal Empire also had sepoys.

The flag, the AI persona and many details shows it is Mughal.
The campaign of AoE3 cannot be regarded as introduction of the civs in my opinion.
The Chinese one even is based on the voyages in the early Ming Dynasty.

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Chinese are primarily represented by Qing but also late Ming, just like British represent the earlier English.

I agree with wonders being anachronistic and out of place. I think they could solve it with a simple reskin and new names. Make them less of a “Wonder” and more like a Factory.

Confucian AcademyFireworks Workshop,
Porcelain TowerCustoms House, etc. Functionality unchanged but much more fitting themes for a colonial outpost.

Did the Britons build their government upon the overthrow of the English?

Chinese are Qing. They don’t need to have a part of the Ming, even if they have, it is almost trivial.

Not every Wonders can be in this way.
You may need to check this. I have already found the solutions for them.

Porcelain Tower better become Trade Workshop.

This would be a big improvement over their current depictions. I’ve been brainstorming how to improve the accuracy of all the different outlaws and this was my take for Asia:

Africa could also use some improvements:

For the Asian ones, I took a slightly different approach with some.

Your suggestion for Mazei instead of Wokou Horsemen is an excellent fit. I like the name Xiangmazei a little more though since it captures the archer aspect of the unit.

Wokou Ronin are basically Kabukimono so there’s no need to replace them, just rename. They’re also are the precursor to the infamous Yakuza.

Wokou Monks could be reworked based on actual rebel monks like those of the White Lotus so they could be retained in a modified form. If they were replaced, I think Shanlin would be a slightly better name. Shanzei seem a little more obscure and the few English sources I could find referred to earlier time periods. Shanlin seems to be more prevalent in the Qing era. That could just be due to translation difficulty.

Liukou also seem a bit too generic for my tastes. My preference for a similar unit would be the Hongmen/Tiandihui. They were a secret society that caused or supported many of the rebellions that you mentioned the Liukou being part of. They also later evolved into the modern Triad gangs as detailed here:

The current Wokou Ronin looks just like what ronins should be like, decadent masterless samurais.
Kabukimono should look more gorgeous and flamboyant, and it is a good source to replace the Yamabushi in Consulate since the religious unit should not in there in my opinion.

It doesn’t make much sense to have two outlaw units of the melee heavy infantry type in the same region.

The “monks” of organizations such as the White Lotus do not belong to the image of Buddhists.
What’s more, the Blind Monk with great fighting power is very full of movie-like imagination.

Well, it may be because you don’t understand Chinese or Japanese languages.

The word “Mountain Bandit (山賊)” is a very common term, just like the words arsonist, raider, and pirate. Once it is a bandit group that haunts the mountains or has its base in the mountains, it can be classified as a mountain bandit group in East Asia such as China, Japan, etc.

The Shanlin you mentioned is very unknown. Not even Wikipedia has a corresponding Chinese page.

Hongmen (洪門) and Tiandihui (天地會) are gangs that seek to overthrow the Qing Dynasty.
But I think outlaws should focus on the unit itself, not the organization, so Liukou is the term that best represents these Chinese bad rogues. To take an extreme example, like an unit should be named Terrorist or Jihadist, not Taliban or ISIS. Not to mention that the term Liukou is very iconic in the Chinese-speaking world.
It’s like there is a card called “Tiandihui” that ships 20 Liukou or something, although it seems odd that the Chinese (Qing Dynasty) have such a card.

I think the mercenary depiction of Ronin is fine. They are essentially the same as Japan’s Samurai unit so having them look similar helps with player recognition. To make the Wokou Ronin into a Kabukimono all that would need to be done is brighten up the colours of the unit model.

Not ideal, but they do serve different roles. Pirates are fast and Ronin are slow heavy hitters. Rattan Shields and Disciples already shock infantry so another Chinese shock infantry might be oversaturating things.

Yes, they might not have the same aesthetic but they would still be monks with Buddhist influences. White Lotus was syncretic and had Buddhist elements. It would just be the least intrusive way to update the unit.

I’d rather not be super generic with names so both Shanlin and Shanzei aren’t the best picks. I think Shanlin are only referenced due to an association with the Honghuzi, it probably isn’t a common term.

I think the Hongmen/Tiandihui have too much of a rich history to not get a reference. It could be something like “Tiandihui Triad” or “Hongmen Liukou” could be a good way to name them.

Belonging to the same type, requiring the same resources, and trained at the same buildings, Wokou Ronin and Wokou Pirate are not sufficiently different to create different strategical functions on most occasions. When the player decides to use outlaws, he/she always choose Wokou Ronin since it is more powerful.

Liukou could be a hand shock unit with strong siege attack, which makes it very different. Also, it is an outlaw unit so it could be used by every civs and does not need TP. If you compare outlaw units with other units rather than with also outlaw units, the barrack and stable units can already satisfy all you need.

Look at Pirates and Arsonists. Simple is good. Easy for players to understand and suitable for many occasions. Especially for players who speak Chinese or Japanese, the term 山賊 is more familiar.

Honghuzi is closer to the concept of Mazei (馬賊), and even Koreans call them ma-jeok (마적) which just literally means Mazei.

Liukou is just enough. No title needed for Asian outlaws. Simple is good.

The problem with this is that outlaws are fixed to certain maps. There is basically no overlap between the maps where you’d find Liukou and the maps where you find Wokou Ronin so they’re not a suitable replacement. The few maps such as Manchuria where they could reasonably overlap don’t currently have Wokou Pirates. Chinese Liukou would not make sense on Japanese maps such as Honshu and Hokkaido where Wokou Pirates and Kabukimono might overlap. For that reason, Wokou Ronin should be renamed to Kabukimono not removed. Even if there are a couple of instances where they could overlap.

Liukou shock infantry would pair with Wokou Pirates on the coasts of China (where there aren’t any maps currently), but if their theme was more focused on the Triads/Tiandihui, their availability could also be extended to the regions of Southeast Asia where the Triads operate.

For the Wokou Monk alternative, one possibility would be to have both a Mountain Bandit and a White Lotus Monk. The Mountain Bandit could be a more generic unit available in central Asia, China, and Japan while the White Lotus Monk could be a Chinese exclusive outlaw.

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If you know the history of the late Ming Dynasty, you will know that Liukou are definitely not only present on the southeastern coast of China. Basically, maps within China proper are suitable for them.

I don’t like having the unit specifically name its organization. As long as Liukou represent the Chinese gangs, even if there is no title of Tiandihui or Triad in their name, they can still appear on the map of Southeast Asia. They can even just be named Rogues instead of Liukou, which may be used on more Asian maps.

The White Lotus Rebellion was essentially a rebellion by Liukou gangs using religion. They are still Liukou rather than monks.

The essence of blind monks is a complete stereotype. Keeping them might as well introduce Kung Fu Panda (pet).

That’s not what I was saying. They just wouldn’t overlap with Wokou in other regions of China.

That’s a much worse option than Liukou.

A White Lotus Monk is not the same as a blind monk. Blind Monks should at most be treasure guardians.

I have another question, China is the Qing Dynasty, why recruit Manchus instead of training Manchus, this is very strange. I propose that the Manchus should be turned into aboriginal tribes rather than appearing as mercenaries.

Good question.

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Same. Blind Monk is just the treasure guardian version of Wokou Monk.
The point is, the rebels of the White Lotus are not real monks, but Liukou who use the name of religion, or peasants who became Liukou.

Rebellions in the name of religion, such as the White Lotus Rebellion, the Nian Rebellion, or the Taiping Rebellion, are not like the religious wars in Europe, but more just use religious superstition to incite the people. Many of those insurgents were not really uprising for religion.

This can’t solve the problem.

The problem with Manchus becoming mercenaries is that they are nobles of the Qing Dynasty, but they can be used by other civs to fight against the Qing Dynasty. If they become a native tribe, this is still the case. Besides, they should be one of the cores of Chinese civ and should not be natives, just like when the Iroquois, Sioux and Aztecs became the civs, their minor civs were replaced with the Hurons, Cheyennes and Zapotecs.

In my opinion, the Manchus should become something like the Spahi or the Urumi Swordsmen, powerful unique units shipped from home city for Chinese. Or, put them into the potential Chinese isolationist option of the consulate. In short, let them be units that can only be used by Chinese civ.

On the other hand, Mongolian Horsemen can be created to replace the previous mercenary position of the Manchus. This would be a reasonable choice since the Mongols had rebelled against the Qing Dynasty and Russians used the Siberian Mongols.

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It’s a good idea to make Manchus be something like Spahi. Original Manchu mercenaries could have their name change to Nomad Horse Archer or something similar.

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