It is not a unit attribute, but a civ bonus, apparently.
Tatar as civ, their CA and especially keshigs should stay how they are. Finally there is a useful castle age melee cavalry UU and then it should be dead nerfed because its playable? wtf thats exactly the idea behind keshigs. If you die vs keshig, you should try making camels/pikemen and if that absolutely doesnt work out, maybe ask yourself why you allowed your enemy to go heavy on stone and make a castle(s) (huge investment) completly unpunished, with a civ that has no mid game eco bonus.
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No their cav is fine but it is their hill bonus that isn’t.
Can confirm, Pikes laugh even at Elite Keshiks.
Vietnamese: u sure are right, ele is always an option vs tartars cuz of the HP you can even go castle ele with skirm push (but you can’t let ur opponent go imp then cuz it will be impossible for you to get the res to imp).
Goths: dark age and feudal are indeed difficult. as soon as you get a castle you can hold. This makes goth only viable on arena or hideout in the higher rankings.
Persians: kamandaran is stong, but useless against skirms, onagers, siege ram, keshik (elite keshik get 3 pierce armor, thats the same as a paladin. and theire eco bonus is useless late imp… not that they weak or anything, but they fall off compared to age 1,2,3 so i advise to finish games quick.
Koreans: get halb and make siege onagers with +2 range and siege engeneers, you just kill all with 20+ siege onagers, tartars can’t engage that, if he wants to engage fall back 2 towers, and when you have enough you can push, probably not viable on arabia cuz civ is to slow.
The point you made about converting keshiks is nice, i would like that change. But woulden’t the problem be that you just snipe the monks with your cav arcvers then? since they are a go to unit for tartars anyway.
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Let me guess: someone played as Mongols and lost against tartars and is now complaining about tartars OP on this board? You really need to stop making this kind of threads for me if you wanna take seriously. If you make each day at least on thread about something which is unbalanced, i cant take it seriously. I am at the point i just disagree with the idea because it is you. I dont think that is what you want with this threads.
I have to say if Tartars are really OP they had to be picked much more. I havent noticed many players pick tartars. I do not play them frequently and my enemy do neither. So i dont think Tartars are OP. If you wanna make a thread about a OP civ, pick persians. Best civ on most ranked maps.
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the tatar unique unit is a bit op in late game. its is almost as good as a paladin, creates super fast, and cost almost no gold (since in creates some gold bacK). Viper seemed to also complaim about them recently when he lost a 4v4 game as khemer
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I compared them to the Mongols because the mongols have the fastest attacking cav archers and one of the best cav archer as UU.
Nobody here is complaining. I brought you simulated data to show that they have a broken bonus. Even if that tech is situational, it can’t be this strong because all the other civs that have situational bonus don’t have a broken bonus.
You can just disagree with it.
Haven’t played new Persians so I don’t know them to evaluate.
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comparing cav archer vs cav archer is a bit weird.
try something like 10 hussar and 15 cav archer fights against 10 hussar 15 cav archer of other civs
I’ll try it tomorrow but their hussar line also gets +1 pierce armor so it fares probably better against the mongols archers than the mongols hussar that have more hp though. I 'll check
It’s a resource found in the scenario editor (triggers) called “raiding productivity.” If you give it to any civ via triggers, their Keshiks will generate gold, although obviously this is useless in standard games.
Ah, right, the old “these aren’t opinions, they’re facts!” route. Arguments framed in this way are never worth engaging.
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Well, you’re right. I guess it could work if your enemy tries to be too greedy. Or you could try to combine them with siege (and pray they haven’t upgrade Hussars 11)
They only got gold saving on their side. Each and every of their stats is inferior to the pala’s, execpt pierce armor.
That’s weird, he is literally in the game mode were gold generation is useless.
Except the lack of Ring archer armor makes them inferior to generic FU archers, a well-known fact. And you didn’t use the Mangudai in your tests. And then again, what would be the point of a better hill bonus if it didn’t make them better on hills?
Data that ignores the fact that no one would take such engagements in the first place, even while not against Tatars. If you decide to play Tatars, manage to use the bonus by forcing an engagement, you deserve to perform better!
Of course it does, Mongols Hussars take less arrows already than genric Hussars.
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Tatars are fine but Keshiks are really powerful. But because they’re made at a castle, that’s a little less important. Unsure whether that will require changes.
At most it’d be something like +5 gold cost, though.
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I don’t think the Tatars are broken, or necessarily OP. I do think they got a tiny bit too much help with the change to Keshik creation speed. That was when I made a point of announcing my disbelief to others about how they’re doing all my dream changes to make the civ absolutely perfect to play.
When I think it’s perfect, it’s a bit too strong.
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They have basics covered, 160 HP and 3 pierce. 11 attack and 1 melee armor is nothing to scoff about for a unit that costs 50f and 40g and are created much faster than Paladins. In the viper game, viper relied on castles and TCs as defense as usual than actual walls like the opposing team and the keshiks didn’t care about the arrow fire and raided freely and cav archers broke into trade multiple times, the elephants couldn’t catch up with the keshiks so it made much more frustrating for him.
They’re like a far tankier and more powerful hussar
All I know is, if the Keshik isn’t too strong right now, the Tarkan needs a buff. Right now, for 10 less HP and 1 less pierce armor, you’re getting a much better deal with the Keshik. Even counting the stable production aspect of the Tarkan I’d still rather have the pop and cost efficiency of the Keshik if I were the Huns. The tarkan even attacks slower.
Every day I tell people that you should graduate the Huns and move onto the Tatars, because tatars get better cav archers, a better cav UU, a better siege tree (siege engineers), and pretty much the same overall eco, trading no early houses for far fewer early farms. I generally think the Tatars actually win out on that exchange. Any bonus the Huns gain from cheaper Cav Archers in the midgame is mitigated very significantly with the free techs the Tatars get for them. Heck, the Tatars even get a unique tech for their trebuchets and the Huns have a civ bonus that increases treb accuracy.
Yup, the Huns have lost their appeal over years with the meta being less fast. I don’t remember much pro picks, their reliance on cavalry makes them vulnerable to stuff like halb ram and struggle against meso. That said I doubt tarkan will be buffed again and I also think people sleep on their anti building prowess
I do like the anti-building damage, because I don’t mind as much when I have to micro something else or it’s not immediately apparent where I should be moving the Tarkan to. I find myself feeling less bad about not properly managing Tarkans than comparable cavalry options. That being said, if that’s what I earn from the Tarkan, I’d still rather have a Keshik. Keshiks last (in reproduction), Tarkans really don’t.
That being said, Hun has Paladin, Tatars don’t, there’s a lot of give and take between the civs, I just prefer the options of the Tatars personally.
And yet you fail to mention that Turk HCA have even superior results vs Mangudais.
Do you think these are OP too and should be urgently nerfed ?
Do you ever stop and wonder why you and you alone see all these incredibly broken things and no one else can seem to find them ?
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