Tatars/Steppe Lancer buff+ patrol change

Doesn’t work like that - and I was referring to treelines/small wall enclosures.

Each idea is commented on - adding in ideas to an existing idea thread is just asking for that idea to be lost in the flood of comments. And won’t be part of the main argument more often than not.

As for duplicate ideas - that would have a reason to append.

+1 range and stacking. It’s already been shown that in large numbers they can overwhelm even cavalier for example

Remove the abuse-ability of open battlefield stacking and increase the range just enough to make them hit casually like kamayuks will balance the unit and improve the game across the board in terms of stacking any unit including siege into a single few tile/s

Stacking is literally supposed to be their advanrage. They arent supposed to win 1 on 1.

Exactly.

20 characters

Except it’s not the stacking you’re referring to.

But I agree, that 2 range instead of 1 would actually solve that problematic.
Of course their dps then need to be adjusted accordingly.

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There is a good bunch of civs that are weak to such compositions, but that’s fine, every civ need weaknesses. Heck Tatars may not have champs to counter that but at least they are able to field this combination themselves, while some civs that get champs to answer that like Berbers can’t really do that either.

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One unit does not counter three

Your premise continues to make no sense. In fact, it’s stretching firmly into the “so what even is your point” category.

Edit: Dam cactus, great minds amiright.

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That statement refers to two possible double unit formations, not 3. Tatars do not have a solid counter to pikes aside from heavily siege inducing compositions which are one and done in most situations. So adding in pikes to any anti archer formation and you’re already steam rolling Tatars.

As for you cactus - you’re right. But even Britons have some counter options to Goths and cavalry.
and Tatars don’t get the last two infantry armor upgrades alongside lacking champs

Except, idk, Tatar silk armor Hussars.

You really need to back off the Tatars, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You don’t need a unit to counter the pikes. You need a unit that protects the cav archers. Cav Archers shred pikes. Your argument has not even begun to make a lick of sense. You’re arguing backwards.

That doesn’t fix the Steppe lancer problem nor does it counter pikes.

Steppe lancers with the buff will soft counter pikes in non-heavy mass formations while protecting the cav archers.

Steppe lancers get shredded by archers, they are a terrible frontline army unit. They have no armor. You do not want to use them to protect your backline, because they’ll die as fast as they arrive and you’ll be overrun

I’m done with this conversation. You don’t even understand the roles of the units you’re trying to improve.

With all due respect - I feel you are overestimating your knowledge on the game.

You are attempting to use drastically different situations to argue a small opinion.

And to add insult to injury- you take to personal insults when that opinion is challenged in a reasonable manner.

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Anyway if Tatars are that weak to trash + siege, then what do the Huns even do? Squishier cav archers, they are stuck with mangonels while Tatars get SE+onagers… And yet this doesn’t prevent the Huns from being a great civ, like the Tatars are.

Also civs that get good siege and halbs tend to have worse skirmishers, so without halb+siege the question is reversed: what do they do against Tatars CA? So in the end you could see it like this: one side tries to win with mobility/outmaneuvering, while the other tries to win with a slow, heavy push.

Huns are a great civ - particularly for the early to mid game and - tatars are a good civ geared towards a defensive late game - but how they deal with their late game opponent is around as limited as the huns with the exception of how they use their siege and having arguably better units - their main flaw is against pikes where as with huns, while they do have that weakness, are geared to keeping the enemy whithered - to keep them off their feet, while the Tatars’ main strength is as easily countered with expectation similar to when one expects a composition from Goths.

The suggested change still keeps that weakness - but it helps at the same time by soft countering that weakness when the pikes are low in number/spread out - by giving the steppe lancers a good use.

As for a lategame fight- even hun pikes are a good counter to tatars - their pikes hit their sword line as if jaguar warriors suddenly gained garland wars

Tatars are extremely agressive, geared towards raiding and an insane lategame comp.

Cav archers + hussar + treb.

Still, I don’t know why they seem to underperform, I think they have a lot running for them. I think they should be winning most of their games.

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btw anybody has an idea how to counter cav archer/flaming camel/hussar?

I mean it’s hard to execute cause it’s double gold, but I see no reasonable counter. How do you engage against demos on land? Scouts can snipe all kind of siege you throw against it. Silk armor makes also all kind of archery basically useless and halbs against cav archers… yeah…

Any Idea?

Pikes en’mass + skirms would generally be enough alongside the casual siege engine or two and a common raid of one’s own provided the opponent isn’t too defensive with their eco. as for flaming camels- they aren’t effectively used against trash and aren’t nearly as powerful as demoships would be. They are great for anti elephant types however in low 1v1 numbers or spammed in team games, also against elephant types and they don’t have the same use as the petard, so siege would be a must or add in a bunch of petards on the side