TG Positions: Which CIv where?

casusincorrabil · January 28, 2023, 4:24pm

With the upcoming Naions Cup 2023 Team Event I think it would be interesting to see wether the community thinks the individual civs are suited for the different TG positions.
There are certainly civs that are viable in multiple positions, but usually they tend to lean towards one more than the other. I also added the Options of “Diverse” if there are civs that don’t really fit in the established TG positional stereotype and also the option to chose if you think a civ is basically totally useless in TG settings.

Aztecs

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Bengalis

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Berbers

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Bohemians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Britons

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Bulgarians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Burgundians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Burmese

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Byzantines

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Celts

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Chinese

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Cumans

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Dravidians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Ethioipians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Franks

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Goths

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Gurjaras

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Hindustanis

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Huns

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Incas

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Italians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Japanese

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Khmer

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Koreans

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Lithuanians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Magyars

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Malay

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Malians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Mayans

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Mongols

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Persians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Poles

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Portuguese

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Saracens

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Sicilians

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Slavs

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Spanish

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Tatars

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Teutons

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Turks

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Vietnamese

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Vikings

Pocket
Flank
Both => Pocket
Both => Flank
Diverse
Useless

0 voters

Temudschinn · January 28, 2023, 6:00pm

Instructions unclear. Made a pizza instead.

Without beeing specific about what map youre talking about, this is nonsense…vikings are a clear flank on arabia, but a strong pocket on some hybrid maps - just as one example.

TheConqueror753 · January 28, 2023, 8:19pm

What does the => mean? Is it that they can do both, but they are preferable in the role to the right of the =>, or that they can do both, but they’re better not in the role of the one to the right of the =>.

casusincorrabil · January 28, 2023, 8:24pm

This. I think this is the only one that makes sense, no? Why would you name something it is worse in?

TheConqueror753 · January 28, 2023, 8:33pm

Well, it could be read as greater or equal to the role on the right, so I wasn’t sure.

casusincorrabil · January 28, 2023, 8:37pm

That would be >=, no?
And I am not sure what this would mean even 11

Green4uu · January 28, 2023, 8:40pm

here is the problem with the poll. Different civs excel at different things, while the “basic strat” is archers = flank, knights = pocket, you can also often mix it up, depending on the map. Khmer for example are not a pocket civ per se, but they become one because of their crazy Scout rushes, while their Knights are pretty average instead.

I think in Nation’s cup, we will see “prepared strats”, for all we know, on a certain map, Bengalis Monks into Fast Imp will be a good strat, but it’s not something you can know for sure if you

a) don’t practice TGs at pro level
b) don’t know the map pool

For these reasons I think the poll is ill-conceived.

TheConqueror753 · January 28, 2023, 8:42pm

Huh, yeah, I suppose that’s true. Still seemed like a strange notation to me.

ZeroEinna · January 29, 2023, 2:16am

I voted from a Black Forest orientation.

casusincorrabil · January 29, 2023, 4:38pm

I’m fine with that.

I left it intentionally open, so people can share their own perception of the game and not get spoiled.

I already see some quite interesting outcomes.

Like with Bengalis. It’s really devided, a lot of people see them as “only flank” and others as “only pocket” and little in between.

Pulikesi25 · January 30, 2023, 2:54am

I agree that the role of some civs could vary between Arabia and hybrid open maps like Golden lakes but Vikings is NEVER a pocket. Civs like Malians, Italians, Japanese could switch roles in a hybrid map but definitely not Vikings. Pocket needs mobility and Vikings don’t have it.

emarz4697 · January 30, 2023, 4:09am

They can be pkt in water maps if they choose to go fc longboats. Unsure if this is a good opener tho.

Temudschinn · January 30, 2023, 7:41am

Never capitalize your never if you have not been watching team game tournaments…

Pulikesi25 · January 31, 2023, 1:13am

Ok let me rephrase you can NEVER WIN if you pick a viking pocket on any map where land play is important. If you want to troll or smurf against low elo players then fine.
What happened to the team with the Viking pocket in the video u just shared? Just don’t try to make a point by showing a game where even the world’s best player couldn’t make the Viking work as a pocket.
You can only justify Viking pocket in mangrove terrain based maps like Water nomad or a few ones from the delicious showmatch where longboats move across the entire map. These maps aren’t a part of any ranked map pools or tg tournaments. Very rarely some local community or a twitch channel organizes a fun showmatch or event with maps like this. So when someone is conducting a survey about civ usage at a competitive level, its safe to ignore these almost unplayed maps.

Temudschinn · January 31, 2023, 7:48am

Honestly its fine to not care about teamgames. I don’t mind.

Its also fine to not watch games other people link in posts to prove their point; after all, its your time, you decide how to spend it.

Im just really confused by your choice to write forum posts about a topic you seem to not care about, not even partially watching the video i posted. It makes a discussion rather…frustrating.

Now how do i know you dont care about teamgames, and didn’t watch the video? In the video, we see GL playing Deceptive Baguettes, who are one of the worlds strongest team (and not some low elo, as you suggest). In this tournament, they took the eventual winner to a game 7, nearly making it to the finals themselfes. More importantly, BOTH TEAMS played vikings pocket. Which you would know, had you watched…

Pulikesi25 · January 31, 2023, 6:35pm

Dude I watched the game live on twitch when it happened.

NO THEY DIDN’T. Did you watch it properly?
Margougou teal player from Baguettes team was Viking FLANK not pocket. If you want to discuss it’s fine but at least watch the video yourself. Maybe you play 4v4 and misunderstood teal as pocket but in that game Baguettes played Viking flank and Burgundians pocket which is the correct thing to do.

GL the overall tournament runner up and a star filled team losing to a considerably lower seeded team (in early 2022) actually supports my point that you can’t pick Vikings as pocket and win at a competitive level.

I believe you wrote this by misunderstanding that I didn’t watch the video and that both teams played Viking pocket. I do care about team games, I play them, watch pro tournaments as long as its not fully water based and everyone is making navy.

Temudschinn · January 31, 2023, 7:48pm

Ouch, true, thanks for the correction - misremebered the game apparently. The game with both going vikings pocket was AM vs WWP, not Baguettes vs GL.
My point still stands: There are maps (and not only pure water maps, altough its a bit of an edge case) where the best players in the world pick vikings as pocket. Yes, its a bit of an outlier. But thats exactly why I took it as an example: Without beeing specific about what map we are talking about, ranking civs as pocket/flank is useless.

Pulikesi25 · February 1, 2023, 6:33am

I get that point. Some civs can swap places depending on the map and I guess that’s why there’s also the option like Both → Flank or Both → Pocket. But Vikings are a decent pocket civ only on water maps in the commonly played ranked or unranked games. Its not a hybrid pick. Like you can’t pick them on Four lakes or Scandinavia or any other map where water control is just a minor advantage. The ROTC tournament had several maps in the pool commonly played in every ranked pool rotation like Arena, Nomad, Black forest, Bedouins(aka African clearing) but Crescent or Atoll are almost never played and they’re water heavy maps as well. 99% of the community doesn’t play these water heavy hybrid maps or water maps or mangrove cup maps.