Thanks for the clarification—this actually helped me understand your perspective better. I appreciate you taking the time to explain, and your insights have definitely given me something to think about.
That said, as was mentioned earlier, your understanding of the term “South China” (华南) seems a bit different from how it’s commonly used by native Chinese speakers. In Chinese discourse, “华南” usually refers quite specifically to the Lingnan region—mainly Guangdong and Guangxi. At most, it might loosely extend to parts of Fujian, Jiangxi, or Hunan, but rarely beyond that.
Also, from what I know, the sinicization of the Lingnan region didn’t occur particularly late—it likely didn’t extend into the modern era. The process may have been gradual, but it was already quite advanced by the Tang and Song periods, especially in the more densely populated river plains.
There were quite a lot of migrations due to wars throughout Chinese history, according to my Chinese relatives and wiki. Your modern language map can be very different from ancient language map. Like the Hakkas actually come from the North.
They were under the rule of Zhou Dynasty for 300 years and Han Empire for 400 years. They share quite a lot of things in common, like cuisine, history, culture, festivals, architecture etc.
Not only modern but also ancient as they have been under the rule of same Empire for a long time.
what they have in common > what they differ. Language is not the only parameter.
Migration due to war… Even there are quite a lot of languages go distinct nowadays despite of media.
… I think Germans that speak low Germans and Germans that speak standard Germans are real Germans.
Could you define what is civ variant?
They never ban people for using Japanese or French or Spanish. They simply state that they can not support non-English.
Good? I would say more at times. At other times they seem like two distant galaxies.
EDIT. Just to add some context, Spanish is more like Portuguese, while Italian is more like French. The pronunciation between Italian and Spanish is more similar than the other two.
mm…what do you think of the comments made by Qū Dàjūn, a Cantonese author in the Qīng Dynasty, in his book called Guǎngdōng Xīnyǔ?
今粵人大抵皆中國種，自秦漢以來，日滋月盛，不失中州清淑之氣。其真酇髮文身越人，則今之猺、獞、平鬃、狼、黎、岐、蛋諸族是也。夫以中國之人實方外，變其蠻俗，此始皇之大功也。佗之自王，不以禮樂自治以治其民，仍然椎結箕倨，為蠻中大長，與西甌、駱越之王為伍，使南越人九十餘年不得被大漢教化，則尉佗之大罪也。蓋越至始皇而一變，至漢武而再變，中國之人，得蒙富教於茲土，以至今日，其可以不知所自乎哉！……
當是時，梅鋗與無諸搖，皆起兵從楚滅秦，又從漢滅楚，有大功勞，不愧為勾踐之子孫。顧佗倔強一隅，乘機僭竊，甘與冒頓分南勁北強以苦漢，斯誠勾踐子孫之所𣸧惡痛疾者也。蓋勾踐之霸，少康之餘烈也。鋗與無諸搖之勳，勾踐之餘烈也。佗非其種族，故宐其棄冠帶，反天性，甘與臝國之王爭雄長也。夫使南越之不得早為中邦，漸被聖化，至漢興七十有餘載，始入版圖，佗誠越之罪人也。
Today, most Cantonese (or literally “people in Guǎngdōng”) are of Chinese (or “the people from Central Plains”) descent, who have grown day by day since the Qín and Hàn dynasties, without losing the pure and elegant spirit of the Central Plains. The real Yuè people with short hair and tattoos are the present-day Yáo, Zhuàng, Píngzōng, Láng, Lí, Qí and Dàn people. To bring Chinese (or “the Central Plains”) people to fill the outside world and change its barbaric customs was the great achievement of the Qín Shǐ Huáng. When Zhào Tuó self claimed king, he did not govern himself with rites and music to govern his people, but continued wearing unkempt hair in primitive knots and sitting in a rude, disrespectful posture, and became the leader among the barbarians, associated with the kings of Xī’ōu, Luòyuè, prevented the people in Nányuè from being educated by the Hàn Dynasty for more than 90 years. This was Zhào Tuó’s great crime. The Yuè Dynasty underwent a change during the reign of Emperor Qín Shǐ Huáng and changed again during the reign of Emperor Wǔ of Hàn. The Chinese people (or “the people from Central Plains”) have been blessed with rich education in this land until today. How can they not know where their origins came from? …
At that time, Méi Xuān and Wú Zhūyáo both raised troops and followed Chǔ to destroy Qín, and then followed Hàn to destroy Chǔ. They made great contributions and were worthy of being the descendants of Gōu Jiàn. Seeing Tuó was stubborn in a corner and took the opportunity to usurp power, willing to work with Mòdú to divide the strength of the south and the north to make the Hàn (Dynasty) suffer. This is truly what the descendants of Gōu Jiàn hate and resent. The hegemony of Gōu Jiàn was the remaining achievements of Shào Kāng. The merits of Xuān and Wú Zhūyáo are the remaining achievements of Gōu Jiàn. Tuó was not of that race, so he threw away his crown and robe, went against his nature, and was willing to compete for supremacy with kings of naked countries. So Nányuè was unable to become a Central State early on to be gradually civilized, but it was not until more than seventy years after the founding of the Hàn Dynasty, it was finally included in the territory. Tuó was truly a sinner of Yuè.
For the sake of game’s future and esports viewership growth I sincerely hope there are several thousand people like you who end up buying the DLC and becoming a regular player, tournament viewer like us.
Ah yes, the good old fashioned attempt to guilt trip us into buying. Nope, not going to happen. The studio owns this mess and the fallout that is to come.
Clearly a significant majority of devoted players are dissatisfied with the DLC and will not purchase this. Which is exactly the right move.
No attempt to guilt trip you or any others who play for the history, I’m talking about competitive RTS gamers and potential eSports participants/viewers. Obviously, I can see you all hate the usage of 3K names for the new civs.
Finally got some time now to answer your inquiry in detail.
Technically you’re right, the term Huanan 华南 should be synonymous to Lingnan. However in practice things aren’t that simple. As you may already know, the Chinese language isn’t a very precise language unlike French or Latin, and the speaker may alter the meaning of the term depending on context or even depending on his or her own beliefs. I’ve seen numerous cases of native speakers using the term Huanan to refer to all of Southern China or all regions south of the Yangtse instead of just Lingnan.
Hence to avoid any confusion, I specifically coined the term Far South China when referring to Lingnan, whereas I’d use South China when referring to Southern China more broadly.
And regarding your 2nd question, while the sinicization of Lingnan certainly didn’t extend to the modern era, it wasn’t very early either. The process was very slow and gradual. Even in the Tang and Song era, there were numerous Sinitic records about Lingnan being filled with various hostile native tribes such as Li, Liao, Man, Dong, Dan, Ling, etc. A noteworthy example was Lingwai Daida, which was a record about Guangdong and Guangxi (as well as SE Asia and other places) written by the 12th century Song official Zhou Qufei, who had been stationed in Lingnan for nearly a decade. According to Zhou’s first hand account, it’s only in a few large cities that you’ll find some Sinitic speakers, whereas much of the countryside and villages still spoke unintelligible native tongues. And the natives would frequently raid Sinitic settlements as well.
Contrary to popular belief or popular historical discourse from a Sinocentric POV where the natives of Guangdong and Guangxi were quite weak and surrendered to the Sinitic dominance without a fight, in actual history they organized several large scale rebellions aimed at taking their lost ancestral lands back. And one of such rebellions was the Xiyuan rebellion (西原州起義) led by the native Huang clan (a Dong or Zhuang clan from Guangxi) that lasted from 756 to 879 AD, which significantly weakened Tang’s rule in Lingnan and North Vietnam, and likely slowed down or set back the sinicization process of Guangxi for centuries. And the slowed sinicization process of Guangxi, coupled with Nanzhao and Champa raids into North Vietnam that likely decimated the Sinitic settlers there, were the reasons why North Vietnam was able to break free from Sinitic rule following Tang’s collapse in the early 10th century AD.
I’d say that it wasn’t until late Song or early Ming that Guangdong finally became sinicized, and for Guangxi it’s even later probably late Ming or Qing.
But I won’t blame you for not knowing any of these. Like you said you aren’t a history major, and plus most Chinese don’t even know what I said above (unless they’re super into the history of Lingnan and SE Asia like myself, which few of them are). It’s fortunate that we could have such a forum to openly discuss history, cause if I were to say the above things on a Chinese forum I’d likely be banned or silenced.
First of all, he said 中國種 and not 漢種, and the term 中國 is another one of those confusing terms that could have significantly different meanings depending on the context or the time period, I really don’t wanna open that can of worms. All I wanna say is it’s entirely possible to be included in 中國 but not included in 漢 or 華.
Secondly, I looked up the author Qu Dajun, and it seems that he didn’t consider himself as Cantonese or at least not native to the region, instead his genealogy traced him back to Hubei in Central China. Hence it would be somewhat wrong to say that he was a Cantonese author.
And even if you consider him to be fully Cantonese, it’s still just the words of one author, which do not necessarily represent the thoughts of other Cantonese scholars or authors. For instance, Shunde scholar Huang Jie complied the textbook “廣東鄉土歷史” in 1905, where he mentioned that Hakka people were neither 粤種 nor 漢種. Of course you may argue that this quote wasn’t about Cantonese, however the fact that Huang listed 粤種 and 漢種 in his book showed that at least he (or perhaps some other Cantonese scholars of his time) believed that Yue and Han were distinct peoples. Not to mention that the term Punti or “Locals, Natives” were widely used by Cantonese people to refer to themselves until very recently (and may still be used in some places). It wasn’t a coincidence that the armed conflicts between Cantonese and Hakka people during the Qing era were known as 土客械鬥 and not 漢客械鬥, implying that most Cantonese of that era identified with “土” or Native and not with Han.
The thing is brainwashing tactics against a particular group or groups of people wasn’t a modern phenomenon, instead it started hundreds of years ago. In the Ming and Qing eras, if a peasant would want to raise up the social ladder, then he would have to take the civil service exams. And in order to be accepted he needed to forge his ancestries or genealogies to connect himself to some important historical or mythical figure in the Central Plains. Ancestry forging was rampant in South China back in the days and there were even a special class of people called Pu Jiang, who earned a living by writing fake genealogy books. This is why you have a few scholars like Qu Dajun who tried hard to connect themselves to the Central Plains and looked down on the natives. Hence their words should be taken with a grain of salt.
粵中有單純之漢種，則始自秦謫徒民處粵，自秦以前，百粵自爲種族，舊有君長臣服於越，越爲夏少康庶子無餘之苗裔，故少康種族有分徒嶺南者是爲漢種，於百粵種混合之族名之曰獞。今猶有獞、猺、獠、黎、蜑族、客家、福狫諸種，散處各方。
There are pure Hàn people in Guǎngdōng, which started from Qín Dynasty when Qín moved (translation erratum: banish) people to Guǎngdōng. Before the Qín Dynasty, the hundreds of Yuè (Bǎiyuè) people were their own ethnic groups. There were rulers that were subject to Yuè in the ancient time, and Yuè was the descendants of Shàokāng of Xià. Therefore, those of Shàokāng’s ethnic group who immigrated to Lǐngnán were Hàn people, who were of the mixed ethnic group of Bǎiyuè people was called Zhuàng. Today, there are still Zhuàng, Yáo, Liáo, Lí, Dàn people, Hakka, and Hokkien ethnic groups (note: most of these characters are with discriminatory parts in the original Chinese script) scattered in various places.
that classifies Cantonese people as Hàn?
btw saying these on Chinese forums won’t be banned or silenced. wonder why you get that impression.
Well if you’d like to talk about genetics and linguistics then there’re ample evidence to prove that Cantonese have significant admixtures from native Tai-Kradai and Austronesian groups. From the G25 genetic calculators I’ve seen Cantonese derive at least half of their ancestries (40% to 50%) from an Austro-Tai source, and this is quite significant.
And linguistically, based on the work of Chinese linguist 李錦芳, Cantonese also contains ample sub-stratum vocabulary from Tai-Kradai, here’s a list of some of them:
搣 mit1: to tear up
掹 mang1: to pull
篤 duk1: to poke [could possibly be related to Zhuang “nduk” or Thai “kraduk” both meaning “bone”, which are in turn related to Tagalog “tinik” meaning “thorn, fishbone”]
冧 lam3: to fall [Thai ล้ม (lom), Zhuang “laemx”]
冚 kam2: to cover [Thai ห่ม (hom)]
諗 nam2: to think [Zhuang “naemj”]
𨂽 dam6: to stomp one’s foot [Zhuang “daemh”]
撳 gam6: to press down, to click [Thai ข่ม (khom), Zhuang “gaemh”]
嘥 saai1: to waste [Zhuang “sai”, Thai เสีย (sia)]
踎 mau1: to squat
郁 juk1: to move
躝 laan1: to crawl, “get out!” [Thai คลาน (khlaan)]
𨂾/𨈇 naam3/laam3: to cross [Thai ข้าม (khaam)]
𨅝 jaang3: to tread on [Thai ย่าง (yaang)]
呃 ngak1/ngaak1: to lie to, to deceive [Zhuang “ngaek”]
囈 ngai1: to beg
扱 kap1: to lid, to cover
孭 me1: to carry on the back
棟/戙 dung6: to erect, to stand straight [Thai ตั้ง (dtang) / Vietnamese “đứng”]
𠺘 long2: to rinse [Thai ล้าง (laang)]
hap1 or 蝦 haa1: to bully, to pick on.
甩 lat1: to slip off, to drop [Vietnamese “lột”]
批 pai1: to peel
鎅/𠝹 gaai3: to cut
擁 ung2: to push
焫 naat3: to sear [Zhuang “ndat”, Thai เดือด (dueat)]
淥 luk6: (liquid) to scald [Thai ลวก (luak)]
㓤/拮 gat1: to pierce, to prick
揈 fing6: to swing, to sway [Bouyei “veengh”]
𢯎 ngaau1: to scratch [Thai เกา (gao)]
痕 han4: itchy [Zhuang “haenz”]
lak1 kak1 (couldn’t find characters): road bumping or person stuttering
孖 maa1: twin, double [Thai ฝาแฝด (faafaet)]
乸 naa5: female, original meaning “female who fills the role of mother” as in 後底乸 [Thai น้า (naa) / Zhuang “nax”]
𧕴 naan3: inflammation on the skin resulting from an insect bite or an illness [Zhuang “nwnj”]
蝻 naam4 as in 蝻蛇 or 大蝻蛇: python [Zhuang “nuemj”, Thai เหลือม (lueam)]
陸 luk6 as in 豬陸: pen, sty [Thai คอก (khaok)]
馬蹄 maa5 tai4: water chestnut [Zhuang “makdaez”]
椗 ding3 as in 慈姑椗: stem of plants
佬 lou2: (colloquial) man [related to the historical Raew/Rau people (僚人) and Laos (寮國/老撾)]
碌 luk1 as in 碌柚: child [Thai ลูก (luuk) / Zhuang “lwg” / Dong “lak” / Malay “anak”]
细路仔 sai3 lou6 zai2: child, boy [路 is the same word with 碌 above. 路仔 is obviously a cognate with Thai ลูกชาย (luukchaai) or Zhuang “lwgsai” meaning “son”]
咪 mai5: don’t [possibly related to Thai มิ (mi) or ไม่ (mai) / could also be related to Zhuang “mbouj”]
啲 di1/dit1: a bit, some [Zhuang “diq”, uncertain]
I agree with you that peoples’ views from the 19th or 20th century shouldn’t be considered when we’re talking about the medieval period, but if we apply this criterion then quoting Qu Dajun’s view is also problematic because he lived outside of the relevant period as well. Qu lived from 1630 to 1696, whereas the game’s time ended in 1600.
Ming and Qing’s relentless brainwash through civil service exams and through ancestry and genealogy forging is what ultimately led to the sinicization of Lingnan. I hope we could at least agree on this point.
If you really wanna prove that medieval Guangdong and Guangxi people were considered as 漢, then you’d better quote an actual medieval source, something along the lines of Lingwai Daida 嶺外代答. From my knowledge there was no such source available, since at that time they weren’t called or considered 漢.
And moreover calling Guangdong and Guangxi people as “pure” Han presupposes that there was a people who were genetically and linguistically “pure” Han, but was there ever such a people? Based on recent genetic tests, we know that Neolithic and Bronze Age Yellow River people had various Y-haplogroups including C2-F845, O1b1a2-Page 59, C2-F1319, C2-M407, N1a-F1998, N1b1-CTS582, Q1a1a1-M120, O2-M117, O2-M134, etc. So which one of these is “pure” Han? If you only consider those belonging to Y-haplogroup O2 as pure Han like many Han nationalists online, then it means even Neolithic Yellow River people cannot be “pure” Han since they had other haplogroups, hence “pure” Han never existed in the first place. Therefore it’s inherently wrong to label anyone as “pure” Han.
So how about recognizing the fact that “Han” is a modern social or political construct and there was no racially/genetically/linguistically pure Han to begin with? How about recognizing the fact that people from Lingnan had considerable native admixtures and stop labeling them as pure Han?
LOL I’m Chinese myself and I’m quite familiar with Chinese forums like Zhihu, Tieba, Douban, etc. I used to say things like Guangdong and Guangxi people have a lot of native admixtures on those forums a few years ago, and every time I said those things I was immediately insulted or attacked by Han nationalists calling me names like “traitor”, “monkey”, “Negrito”, “chimp”, etc. And my account got banned several times. That’s why I decided to leave those virulent places for good and post on English forums instead.
I am European and i want more china civs. how about that?
BUT, leave heroes to campaigns. And make some new mechanics for older existing ingame civilizations as well.
I really like this patch in graphical sense and would like to see where it is going.
Thanks for the information on linguistics and genetics, although I already knew those. What I mean is that in the end it all depends on how the ancients (even if it was primitively) divided ethnic groups.
These are some records in the Táng Dynasty:
第九程至魯望，即蠻、漢兩界，舊曲靖之地也。曲州、靖州廢城及丘墓碑闕皆在，依山有阿竿路部落。——《蠻書》
The ninth stage reaches Lǔ Wàng, which marks the boundary between the Mán (barbarian) and Hàn territories, once part of the old region of Qū and Jìng. The abandoned cities, tombs, and stelae of Qūzhōu and Jìngzhōu, are still present, with the Ā’gānlù tribe residing at the foot of the mountains.——“A Book about Mán (Barbarians)”
崇魔蠻，去安南管内林西原十二日程，溪洞而居，俗養牛馬，此年與漢博易。——《蠻書》
Chóngmó Mán is twelve days away from Línxīyuán in Ānnán. They live in caves by streams and raise cattle and horses customarily. This year they traded with Hàn people.——“A Book about Mán (Barbarians)”
If you think that the Táng people often compared the Táng Dynasty to the Hàn Dynasty (I don’t know how to explain it, a bit like the Franks like to compare themselves to the Roman Empire?), so it is difficult to prove it, then here are the literatures from the Sòng Dynasty:
黎人半能漢語，十百爲群，變服入州縣墟市，人莫辨焉。——《嶺外代答》
Half of the Lí people can speak Hàn’s language (or Chinese in our common sense). They gather in groups of tens or hundreds, change their clothes and enter the markets in counties and prefectures, and no one can tell them apart. ——Answers from Outsides of the (Five) Ridges (or Lǐngwài Dàidá, as you have mentioned)
官軍圍靈州不下，糧盡而返。西人城上問官軍：漢人兀捺否？答曰：兀捺。城上皆笑。——《仇池筆記・西征途中詩》
The government troops failed to capture Língzhōu and returned after running out of food. The Westerners on the city wall asked the government troops: “Are Hán people abashed?” They answered: “Abashed”. Everyone on the wall laughed. ——“Poems on the Western Expedition” in Qiuchi Notes
副使展裹金帶，如漢服。大使拜則立左足跪右足，以兩手着右肩爲一拜，副使拜如漢儀。夏國使、副皆金冠，短小樣製，服緋窄袍，金蹀躞。吊敦皆義手展拜。高麗與南番交州使人並如漢儀。——《東京夢華錄》
The deputy envoy unfurled a golden belt, like Hànfú (Hàn Chinese clothing), while the ambassador bowed by standing on his left foot and kneeling on his right foot, placing both hands on his right shoulder. This was considered one bow. The deputy envoy bowed according to Hàn’s etiquette. The envoys and deputies of the Xià Kingdom all wore golden crowns in short and small styles, and narrow crimson robes with golden diéxiè (waist belts). All present offered their reverent bows with arms extended in ritual propriety. The envoys from Goryeo and Southern Fān Jiāozhōu also followed the Hàn’s etiquette. ——Records of Dreamy Prosperity in the Capital, or Dōngjīng Mènghuálù
種落略漢人，誠未當以常法繩之。然漢人得歸，反以盜罪加以深憲，此尤可憫。落蕃者甚有竊其馬以歸者，豈可罪耶？——《河南先生文集・與儀州曹頴叔殿丞書》
The tribes who have plundered the Hàn people haven’t been punished by the usual laws but the Hàn people after they were able to return, were severely punished with the crime of theft, which is particularly pitiful. Some of the people who were looted and brought to barbarians even stole their horses to come back. Can they even be punished for this? ——“Letter to the Chancellor Cáo Yǐngshū of Yízhōu” in Collected Works of Hénán Xiānshēng
張鈐，豳國人，一名翼。善畫蕃馬及人物，皆師趙光輔。運筆落墨，有刀頭燕尾之狀，深得其法。但爲蕃族面目，多類漢人，於體爲失。——《宋朝名畫評》
Zhāng Qián is a native of Bīn and he is also known as Yì. He excelled at painting barbarian horses and human figures, following the style of Zhào Guāngfǔ. His brushwork and ink application showed the distinctive strokes just like “knife-head and swallow-tail”, demonstrating deep mastery of the technique. However, his depictions of barbarian faces often resembled Hàn Chinese, which was considered a flaw in form. ——A Review of Famous Paintings of the Sòng Dynasty
“歸正人”，元是中原人，後陷於蕃而復歸中原，蓋自邪而歸於正也。“歸明人”，元不是中原人，是徭洞之人來歸中原，蓋自暗而歸於明也。如西夏人歸中國，亦謂之“歸明”。——《朱子語類》“Gūi-zhèng people”(submittees) referred to those originally of Central Plains who have fallen into the hands of barbarian regimes, later returned to the Central one. Their return was termed a “restoration to rightful allegiance from the forces of evil ones”. “Gūi-míng people”(naturalized subjects), by contrast, designated those who were not of Central Plains but were like the Yáo or the cave-dwelling people came and submitted to the Central authority like a shift from darkness to light. For example, when the Xīxià people (Tanguts) turned to the Central regime, it was also called “Gūi-míng”.——Collected Conversations of Master Zhū
通判沅州賀瑋奏請，本州蠻漢雜居，相犯則漢人獨被真刑，而歸明人止從罰贖，實於人情未便。乞將沅州、誠州蠻漢人相犯，立定年限，從法律斷罪。——《續資治通鑑長編》
Hè Wěi, the magistrate of Yuánzhōu, petition that the Mán and Hàn people lived together in the state, and if they committed crimes, only the Hàn people would be really punished, while “Gūi-míng people” would only be fined and redeemed, which was not yet appropriate to human nature. I beg that if the Mán (barbarians) and Hàn in Yuánzhōu and Chéngzhōu commit crimes to each other, a time limit should be set and they should be punished according to the law. ——Continuation of Zīzhì Tōngjiàn
鬼章自先朝以來，前後殺害中國兵將，蕃漢人民，萬數極多，死者怨憤莫伸，其家孤寡窮獨之人，恨不臠食其肉。——《范文正公忠宣公全集・奏乞誅鬼章》
Since the previous dynasty, Gǔi Zhāng (a Tibetan leader) has killed Central regime soldiers and generals, and also both Hàn and barbarian (Tibetan) people for tens of thousands. The dead have no way to redress their grievances, and the orphaned, widowed, and destitute members of their household harbored such resentment that they longed to devour his flesh. ——“A Court Memorial for the Execution of Demons” in The Complete Collection of Fànwénzhènggōng Zhōngxuāngōng
also a poem:
漢人何年被流徙，衣服漸變存語言。力耕分穫世爲客，賦役希少𦕅偷安。漢奚單弱契丹橫，目視漢使心凄然。石瑭竊位不傳子，遺患燕薊逾百年。仰傾呼天問何罪，自恨遠徂從禄山。——《欒城集・出山》
Since what year were the Hàn people exiled? Their clothing slowly changed, but their language remained. They toiled in the fields and shared the harvest, yet remained guests for generations; rarely burdened with taxes or labor, they survived in uneasy peace. Hàn and Xī people grew weak, while the Khitans grew rampant; when they saw the envoy from Hàn, sorrow welled up in their hearts. Shí Jìngtáng usurped the throne and left no heir; the disaster of yielding Yān and Jì regions endured over a hundred years. Looking up, they cried to Heaven, asking what crime they had committed; bitterly they regretted following Ān Lùshān into distant lands."——“Leaving the Mountains” in Luánchéng Collection
and colloquialism of the Sòng Dynasty:
一日，雪峰上堂曰：“要會此事，猶如古鏡當臺，胡來胡現，漢來漢現。”師曰：“忽遇明鏡來時如何？”雪峰曰：“胡漢俱隱。”師曰：“老和尚脚跟猶未點地。”——《景德傳燈錄》
One day, Xuěfēng said in class: “To understand this, it is like an ancient mirror on a stage. When a Hú comes, the Hú appears; when a Hàn comes, the Hàn appears.” The master said: “What if a bright mirror suddenly came to me?” Xuěfēng said: “Both the Hú and the Hàn disappear.” The master said: “The old monk’s heels have not even touched the ground yet.”——Jǐngdé Chuándeēng Records
Based on those literatures, it is difficult to say that “Hàn” as a name for an ethnic group does not exist.
As for people in the Pearl Delta:
I agree with the civil service exams requirement for candidates’ citizenship and the spread of education had accelerated assimilation, but in the Sòng and Míng dynasties, anyone who was a registered citizenship could take the examination, regardless of their family’s language and customs (of course, the exams were almost always in Chinese scripts). The Yuán Dynasty was special, as different ethnic groups were tested and ranked differently. In the Qīng Dynasty (which is out of scope), the Eight Banners had separate examination from Hàn, while minorities were generally not allowed to take the exam (see: During the Qīng Dynasty, could people from the Manchu, Mongolian, Hui and Tibetan regions take the imperial examinations?-Zhihu).
As for ancestry and genealogy forging, I think it was one of the means for the new money and chieftains to consolidate their status. They just took advantage of the opportunity of patriarchal reform due to the internal conflict in the Ming court. Therefore, the new money and chieftains were vested interests rather than victims.
In a word, I think the ethnic name “Hàn people” existed in ancient times (sometimes including the Yangtze River people, but I don’t know if it included the Fújiàn people), and various southern Mán (barbarians) obviously also existed. But what were the people in the Pearl River Delta who were somewhere in between? I don’t know, maybe “mestizos”. If I were to chose any “civ” to add, I think it would be 俚(Lǐ) (again, Lady Xian) or Dai/Tai/Zhuàng (of course, a different “civ” from Dali, which I also support).
Well, but there are actually a lot of people who discuss this without getting banned, while being cursed is common I would say. The reason for the ban may be that your wording was inappropriate.
I never said the terms “Han” or “Hanren” did not exist, however they did not refer to the people of Lingnan, instead they referred to the Central Plains people.
I read all of the sources you cited, and none of them mentioned anything about Lingnan people being Han. The closest one I see is “黎人半能漢語”, yet it can be perfectly translated as “half of Li people can speak Central Plains language”, it did not call Li people as “Han”.
If you think that they were somewhere in between then you’d better provide the actual sources. AFAIK, the concept of race or racial mixing did not exist in ancient and medieval China, thus you won’t find Sinitic sources which said a certain people were Mestizo.
And Lingnan does not only include Pearl River delta, it also includes western Guangdong and Guangxi, and they were definitely not called Han in the primary sources.
Nope, even when I was polite I still got attacked and banned, Han nationalists are some of the rudest and most uneducated people I’ve ever encountered, as do those weird forums they like to frequent.