The addition of Gambesons has disproportionately hurt Persian Trashbows

[TheConqueror753]

@SMUM15236

Why balance team didn’t give anything to Persians on the biggest patch of the history?

Well, actually…

[EvilPanda494]

Yeah but trashbow job is to counter pikes and they do much better against pikes than skirms. They also do more damage to basically anithing else outside from archers, they still do 2 damage against FU cavalier (generic) and while they are not a counter in damage to militia, they are still cost effective in late gane, since they don’t cost gold, and have no minimum range issues like skirms, and get affected by thumb ring shooting faster

Yeah they are not the best unit in the world of course, but they are better than FU elite skirms nonetheless

They could be made a tad cheaper maybe but i think Persian problems lies elsewhere. Maybe if the tech affected CA as well and removing HCA upgrade then would be better and also represent a Persian identity missing in cavalry Archer play, but maybe that would also be kind of OP (maybe lacking HCA and Bracer would not be enough for instance)

Imho they should simply regain the 5% faster working from dark age and see what happens, and if it’s too strong for nomad, made a fixed change for that particular game mode

[Nerathion]

@DemiserofD

For two, they’ve never really been a cavalry archer civ in the first place, so that would be a major shift in their theme, which I’d like to avoid.

I mean, so was Kamandaran. They never were a Crossbow civ, now they have a tech that can turn them into one - albeit weakened due to Gambesons. But ‘free’ Crossbows have to be nerfed so that it wouldn’t be too much. You can argue the same point for Malay, but Crossbows are much higher on a power scale than 2hands.

And if you start struggling against infantry, you have Hand Cannoneers behind as well. And even then, doing 2 damage is still important, as it’s not 1 damage. That’s a 100% damage increase, and considering how much you can spam Trashbows, this should not become that big of a problem for you. You should readily have 60+ Trashbows available if you want to make that your main composition, which is enough to mow the infantry down.

[SMUM15236]

@Pulikesi25

Just give back the tc work 5% faster in dark age, remove dock work faster as a bonus for balance on hybrid and the civ would be really solid.

@EvilPanda494

Imho they should simply regain the 5% faster working from dark age and see what happens, and if it’s too strong for nomad, made a fixed change for that particular game mode

Back then it was proven to be OP even in Arabia. The reason is you not only gets extra villager, you also have extra 100 resource as well as you age up early. A lot of civs have been buffed ever since but reverting this will still be risky. Also if you exclude dock just for Dark age, the bonus will look ugly. Maybe remove age advancing from the bonus will make it balanced.

@DemiserofD

The problem is, they’re really not that good as a trash unit. The thing people forget is that they take wood, not food like skirms, which means they’re dramatically more expensive in the endgame, since wood translates to like 10x as much food. You’re looking at a skirm costing like 40 wood, vs a trashbow costing 60, and at that point they basically trade equally against halbs while being much, much worse against archers.

Finally someone said this. Trashbows are not an alternative unit to skirmisher. They are an alternative to HC imo. As Persians players are more likely to spend their food and gold in heavy cavalry, affording HC maybe difficult. Hence the trashbow as a support unit has been introduced which can also be used in trash war. But they are not an affordable unit to spam in trash war.

[Ifavorwining]

Give them +5% in darkage remove the 50 wood so they dont become OP on hybrid maps

[Kamandaran]

They need a 3rd upgrade to the HCA line called Royal Cavalry Archer with extra damage, HP and range. This could be their answer to infantry. I mentioned this and the reasoning for it in another thread… some people argued that it was too expensive to tech into, which upon reflection I agree with, but the cost can be adjuted.

The ultimate Persian re-design thread

Ok I have been reading a lot about the various ideas on the forums about what to do with the Persians to make them a bit more interesting, and I wanted to take my favourite ideas and put them in one place and present a sort of comprehensive redesign idea for the civ. I am not expecting this to be taken up by the devs, so its mostly here for my own amusement but hey I didn’t expect some of the other ideas I had regarding other civs (Poles and Bohemians) to make it into the game either and somehow…

[Pulikesi25]

@SMUM15236

Back then it was proven to be OP even in Arabia. The reason is you not only gets extra villager, you also have extra 100 resource as well as you age up early. A lot of civs have been buffed ever since but reverting this will still be risky. Also if you exclude dock just for Dark age, the bonus will look ugly. Maybe remove age advancing from the bonus will make it balanced.

It was top tier but not OP on Arabia and yes like you’ve mentioned balance was so much different. The problem of poor monks, limited late game options, lack of 1v1 uu and heavy dependence on cavalry will still prevail. It was OP on maps like Four lakes, Nomad and I’m recommending removing dock working faster altogether for Persians, not just in dark age. Not a naval civ and removing that bonus would make sense as well as balance on hybrid while making them good on open. Removing age up speed - that’s 6 seconds for the dark → feudal age, 16 seconds for feudal → castle age. Its very minor but I’m ok if age up isn’t faster

[SMUM15236]

@Pulikesi25

I’m recommending removing dock working faster altogether for Persians, not just in dark age. Not a naval civ and removing that bonus would make sense as well as balance on hybrid while making them good on open. Removing age up speed - that’s 6 seconds for the dark → feudal age, 16 seconds for feudal → castle age. Its very minor but I’m ok if age up isn’t faster

I think they need more than 5% faster TC in that case. Right now they are limited to hybrid maps only. And if you take way that, just 5% faster TC won’t be enough.

[Shykorus]

Why not just use elephants?

[TheConqueror753]

Because they are far too expensive, slow, and vulnerable to conversion to be viable.

[Shykorus]

Then use knights. Easy peezy

[Pulikesi25]

Yes that’s what they use but they’re slower compared to many other civs and fall behind most of the time.

@SMUM15236

I think they need more than 5% faster TC in that case. Right now they are limited to hybrid maps only. And if you take way that, just 5% faster TC won’t be enough.

If you get 5% faster tc in dark age, its one villager advantage which is huge. They still have the extra wood and food for a faster dock for hybrid maps and the docks will still have 2x hp, they just won’t work faster. Its basically like the Spanish change, nerfing them on maps where they were too powerful while buffing them on maps where they were too weak.