The bset Civs on Arabia (according to SAX Cups Drafts)

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Hey guys,

in september 2023, after “The Champion’s Invitational”, I made a topic called “Ranking the Civs from best to worst”, where I analysed the order of the civ picks to determine what civs are the best overall (41 maps were in the pool and all but 1 civ were picked in the draft).

Now we had the Arabia only tournament “ShenAiXie Cup” (SAX Cup) and again I used kind of the same method to determine what the best civ on Arabia is.

I put all 31 drafts of the main stage of the SAX Cup in Excel and took the average of the draft spot for each civ in each draft. I put a 0 for the player bans, I put 2,5 for the 2nd/3rd pick (4,5 for the 4th/5th and so on) for each player (beacause they are picked consecutively), I left blank spaces for the 12 auto bans, I took 27 for the average of the non drafted civs (middle between 21 and 33, 34-45 would be the auto-bans) and 29 in the finals because more civs were drafted there.

So, this is what I got:

A Hera vs Prismuki Hearttt vs Nicov Daut vs Daniel Sitaux vs Kingstone Tatoh vs Hope Andy vs Dogao Liereyy vs Dracken Sebastian vs StrayDog TheViper vs Fire Villese vs Mihai ACCM vs Babaorum Barles vs Classicpro Yo vs Kasva Vivi vs Margougou MbL vs Capoch Vinch vs Dark Hera vs Hearttt Daut vs Sitaux Tatoh vs Andy Liereyy vs Sebastian TheViper vs Mihai ACCM vs Barles Yo vs Vivi MbL vs Vinch Hera vs Sitaux Andy vs Sebastian Mihai vs Barles Vivi vs Vinch Sitaux vs Sebastian Barles vs Vinch Sebastian vs Vinch Average
Aztecs 27 14,5 10,5 8,5 14,5 0 6,5 14,5 14,5 14,5 12,5 27 0 14,5 16 12,5 10,5 27 27 10,5 14,5 10,5 13,98
Armenians 12,5 27 16 27 0 27 10,5 27 12,5 14,5 27 27 0 14,5 8,5 27 12,5 27 12,5 14,5 17,23
Bengalis 16 27 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 0 27 27 0 14,5 27 14,5 14,5 27 27 27 29 21,86
Berbers 10,5 4,5 16 12,5 12,5 27 27 12,5 14,5 16 16 10,5 27 16 12,5 27 16 10,5 8,5 14,5 27 10,5 15,86
Bohemians 27 27 27 12,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 12,5 27 27 12,5 27 14,5 29 24,30
Britons 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 18,5 26,00
Bulgarians 27 27 16 27 27 0 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 24,89
Burgundians 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 29 26,00
Burmese 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 26,00
Byzantines 14,5 0 2,5 0 8,5 14,5 2,5 0 6,5 2,5 2,5 2,5 0 0 6,5 0 2,5 0 0 6,5 4,5 6,5 3,77
Celts 27 27 27 27 27 16 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 29 26,02
Chinese 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0,46
Cumans 0 27 27 27 27 27 16 27 14,5 0 0 27 27 27 27 27 16 27 14,5 14,5 14,5 14,5 27 27 27 29 20,71
Dravidians 27 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 10,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 29 25,77
Ethiopians 10,5 27 4,5 27 8,5 14,5 27 8,5 16 16 8,5 12,5 27 6,5 16 12,5 8,5 14,5 10,5 10,5 8,5 10,5 27 4,5 27 14,5 14,56
Franks 27 6,5 0 6,5 6,5 10,5 10,5 12,5 0 27 8,5 8,5 14,5 10,5 6,5 12,5 6,5 27 12,5 14,5 12,5 11,48
Georgians 0 2,5 0 0 1 0 2,5 0 2,5 2,5 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0,68
Goths 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 12,5 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 16 14,5 25,06
Gurjaras 12,5 12,5 0 27 8,5 27 27 12,5 27 8,5 6,5 12,5 10,5 12,5 27 10,5 10,5 14,5 6,5 10,5 27 14,81
Hindustanis 8,5 4,5 2,5 2,5 4,5 0 8,5 27 4,5 6,5 2,5 6,5 4,5 6,5 4,5 4,5 4,5 6,5 2,5 1 6,5 5,67
Huns 8,5 12,5 14,5 10,5 27 0 14,5 12,5 8,5 27 6,5 10,5 10,5 12,5 27 10,5 8,5 2,5 12,5 6,5 8,5 6,5 4,5 11,41
Incas 0 0 0 6,5 0 0 2,5 1 16 4,5 0 0 0 0 4,5 0 4,5 0 0 0 0 12,5 0 1 0 1 12,5 0 2,38
Italians 16 27 27 8,5 14,5 27 27 27 27 16 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 16 29 24,70
Japanese 10,5 12,5 0 8,5 27 14,5 6,5 27 27 27 10,5 14,5 27 27 8,5 12,5 16 10,5 15,94
Khmer 2,5 6,5 1 6,5 0 6,5 2,5 2,5 2,5 12,5 1 8,5 1 0 0 0 2,5 4,5 0 0 4,5 4,5 4,5 2,5 3,19
Koreans 27 27 27 27 27 14,5 8,5 10,5 14,5 8,5 10,5 10,5 27 27 14,5 12,5 8,5 10,5 27 14,5 8,5 12,5 27 12,5 16,5 17,24
Lithuanians 10,5 4,5 10,5 10,5 6,5 6,5 10,5 8,5 8,5 12,5 6,5 6,5 2,5 8,5 6,5 6,5 6,5 6,5 4,5 8,5 0 6,5 6,5 6,5 7,15
Magyars 6,5 10,5 16 12,5 8,5 12,5 12,5 10,5 4,5 4,5 0 6,5 6,5 10,5 12,5 10,5 27 16 10,5 10,5 2,5 8,5 10,00
Malay 27 4,5 4,5 14,5 2,5 8,5 2,5 4,5 0 6,5 2,5 2,5 4,5 2,5 0 8,5 2,5 2,5 4,5 0 0 2,5 2,5 0 4,58
Malians 4,5 6,5 0 4,5 6,5 4,5 1 0 4,5 4,5 12,5 6,5 4,5 4,5 4,5 4,5 4,5 16 1 4,5 4,5 0 0 1 0 4,20
Mayans 0 2,5 2,5 6,5 0 0 6,5 1 8,5 1 0 0 8,5 0 2,5 6,5 2,5 2,5 0 8,5 2,5 2,5 0 8,5 0 4,5 2,98
Mongols 0 0 0 0 2,5 0 0 0 0 1 1 4,5 0 0 2,5 0 2,5 0,82
Persians 4,5 4,5 2,5 0 10,5 4,5 6,5 8,5 4,5 1 8,5 4,5 12,5 8,5 4,5 12,5 0 27 12,5 8,5 12,5 2,5 8,5 7,37
Poles 27 10,5 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 20 25,62
Portuguese 2,5 2,5 0 4,5 2,5 0 10,5 0 2,5 2,5 0 2,5 0 2,5 0 0 2,5 1 2,5 0 2,5 2,5 2,5 0 2,5 1,94
Romans 12,5 27 27 16 10,5 4,5 10,5 6,5 6,5 6,5 27 4,5 16 27 14,5 27 2,5 8,5 12,5 27 27 15,29
Saracens 6,5 8,5 0 10,5 6,5 27 27 0 10,5 12,5 27 14,5 10,5 2,5 10,5 6,5 27 8,5 6,5 8,5 0 11,00
Sicilians 27 27 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 29 26,52
Slavs 12,5 14,5 8,5 14,5 12,5 27 27 27 27 14,5 10,5 6,5 27 12,5 10,5 27 27 27 8,5 27 16 27 14,5 8,5 12,5 17,88
Spanish 12,5 27 27 27 27 27 0 0 27 27 27 14,5 14,5 27 27 0 27 27 27 0 27 16,5 19,82
Tatars 8,5 12,5 8,5 4,5 27 27 27 8,5 10,5 4,5 12,5 10,5 8,5 6,5 12,5 12,5 6,5 10,5 10,5 8,5 8,5 10,5 11,66
Teutons 27 27 14,5 27 27 14,5 27 27 27 16 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 16 18,5 24,36
Turks 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 29 27,09
Vietnamese 8,5 0 6,5 2,5 8,5 4,5 6,5 10,5 8,5 4,5 12,5 4,5 10,5 10,5 8,5 2,5 8,5 6,5 4,5 1 6,5 4,5 4,5 4,5 0 4,5 5,94
Vikings 27 27 12,5 4,5 27 27 12,5 14,5 27 27 27 27 16 10,5 27 27 27 27 21,92

This is the average put in order:

1. Chinese 0,46
2. Georgians 0,68
3. Mongols 0,82
4. Portuguese 1,94
5. Incas 2,38
6. Mayans 2,98
7. Khmer 3,19
8. Byzantines 3,77
9. Malians 4,2
10. Malay 4,58
11. Hindustanis 5,67
12. Vietnamese 5,94
13. Lithuanians 7,15
14. Persians 7,37
15. Magyars 10
16. Saracens 11
17. Huns 11,41
18. Franks 11,48
19. Tatars 11,66
20. Aztecs 13,98
21. Ethiopians 14,56
22. Gurjaras 14,81
23. Romans 15,29
24. Berbers 15,86
25. Japanese 15,94
26. Armenians 17,23
27. Koreans 17,24
28. Slavs 17,88
29. Spanish 19,82
30. Cumans 20,71
31. Bengalis 21,86
32. Vikings 21,92
33. Bohemians 24,3
34. Teutons 24,36
35. Italians 24,7
36. Bulgarians 24,89
37. Goths 25,06
38. Poles 25,62
39. Dravidians 25,77
40. Britons 26
40. Burgundians 26
40. Burmese 26
43. Celts 26,02
44. Sicilians 26,52
45. Turks 27,09

So we have a pretty clear Top 3 of Chinese, Georgians and Mongols who, when not auto-banned, were either banned by the players, or very early in almost every draft. The Chinese were banned or picked 1st in every single draft. That alone says that they or just too good on Arabia in hands of pro players.

On the bottom there were a lot of civs that were left out of contention most of the time (if not auto-banned). But there is one civ that seems to be worse on Arabia than any other civ: The Turks were not picked once in any draft. The pro players just seem to have no confidence in ever winning a game with Turks.

I know there are many great balance suggestions floating around in this forum, and there are a lot of civs (or the Market) that could need tweaks to their balance or their civ design to perform better overall or on certain type of maps. I don’t want to adress all of them here, so I’ll just make suggestion for the best and the worst civ, and leave the rest up for discussion.

Chinese:

  • Lose access to the Heavy Camel upgrade.

Right now they just have so many options, can basically tech into everything in the mid-game and reach different army comps easily because of the cheaper techs and great eco. Just taking away one mobility option for the late game might be a good idea to make them a little less op on Arabia, while not really hurting their playstyle on closed maps too much.

Turks:

  • Scale Barding armor is free.
  • Instead of Scout-line +1 pierce armor → (military) units that don’t cost gold have +1 pierce armor starting in Castle Age.

Because of the free Scale Barding armor they would get a really good overall scout rush, instead of just against Archers. Since they basically don’t have an eco bonus up to this point, they could then survive up to Castle Age much better. Then starting in Castle Age you would get back the +1 pierce armor for the Scout-line and maybe be able to fight with leftover Spears or Skirms and buy a little bit more time to transition into your stronger options.
This bonus is much more helpful on open maps, where they really need help, and less helpful on closed maps, where Scouts/Light Cav are mainly there to snipe Monks and players usually don’t research blacksmith upgrades anyway in those situations.

What do you guys think of the Arabia balance? I enjoyed the SAX Cup a lot since there were so many close games and the overall balance seems to be pretty good on Arabia! Still I think some tweaks to a few civs and the market could be made.

Cheers :slight_smile:

2 Likes
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Sorry I don’t think I understood your 1st table.

As for second table, Chinese = 0,46 means Chinese was untouched (no ban or no pick) for 0 times and picked 46 times, right?

3

It means that Chinese always get banned (0) or get picked very low. In case of the Chinese they were always picked 1st if they were available (1). The exact numbers of the 24 drafts in which Chinese were not auto-banned are: 13 bans, 11 1st picks (plus 7 auto-bans). So we get [(13 x 0) + (11 x 1)] / 24 = 0,46

1 Like
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Okay. So 0,46 means 0.46. Didn’t realize you’re using “,” as decimal point.

Anyway, can you do me a favor? Instead of this averaging priority pick, can you just do a simple table like this?

Civ - Auto Ban - Player Bans - Player Drafts - Game played by the civ.

For example,
Chinese - 7 - 13 - 11 - less than 11 as player may save them for later games but the match is already over.

Thought it would be Bulgarians.

5

Sorry, German behaviour 11

I could do this as well, sure.

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This won’t change anything as where Chinese flexibility kicks stronger is in Castle Age when is the most decisive point on open maps.

No, that would just make Turks scout rush unstoppable in feudal, not only free PA but also free Melee armor as well, Villagers would need from sudden 22 hits, more than Frankish Scouts, also winning every scout war from start. Also is time to stop this powercreep to make every civ strong on every map on every moment of the game, we already have Portuguese as an example.

Also were are the Georgian, Mongol, Inca and Mayan nerfs?

2 Likes
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Auto-Ban Player-Ban Player Draft Not banned/drafted Avg Draft Position
Aztecs 9 2 16 4 13.98
Armenians 11 2 10 8 17.23
Bengalis 9 2 5 15 21.86
Berbers 9 0 17 5 15.86
Bohemians 11 0 4 16 24,3
Britons 10 0 2 19 26.00
Bulgarians 13 1 1 16 24.89
Burgundians 8 0 2 21 26.00
Burmese 6 0 2 23 26.00
Byzantines 9 8 14 0 3.77
Celts 9 0 2 20 26.02
Chinese 7 13 11 0 0.46
Cumans 5 3 7 16 20.71
Dravidians 9 0 2 20 25.77
Ethiopians 5 0 20 6 14.56
Franks 10 2 16 3 11.48
Georgians 12 12 7 0 0.68
Goths 5 0 4 22 25.06
Gurjaras 10 1 14 6 14.81
Hindustanis 10 1 19 1 5.67
Huns 8 1 19 3 11.41
Incas 3 17 11 0 2.38
Italians 4 0 5 22 24.70
Japanese 13 1 11 6 15.94
Khmer 7 6 18 0 3.19
Koreans 6 0 16 9 17.24
Lithuanians 7 1 23 0 7.15
Magyars 9 1 20 1 10.00
Malay 7 5 18 1 4.58
Malians 6 5 20 0 4.20
Mayans 5 9 17 0 2.98
Mongols 14 10 7 0 0.82
Persians 8 2 20 1 7.37
Poles 5 0 3 23 25.62
Portuguese 6 9 16 0 1.94
Romans 10 0 14 7 15.29
Saracens 10 3 14 4 11.00
Sicilians 9 0 1 21 26.52
Slavs 6 0 15 10 17.88
Spanish 9 4 4 14 19.82
Tatars 9 0 19 3 11.66
Teutons 10 0 5 16 24.36
Turks 8 0 0 23 27.09
Vietnamese 5 2 24 0 5.94
Vikings 13 0 6 12 21.92
1 Like
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You won’t build as many Camels in Castle Age if you know that you can’t upgrade them in Imp. So I do think it would impact their flexibility.

that would just make Turks scout rush unstoppable in feudal

They would still die to Spears and in a 1v1 they would not be better than Franks or Magyars Scouts. And those two civs have other bonuses to support their scout rush. So I’m pretty sure that it would not be broken.

Well as I said in my original post, I didn’t want to give an opinion on every single civ (didn’t want to make the post longer than it already was 11)

But my nerfs for the other top civs would be:

Georgians: some small Monaspa nerf
Mongols: actually not sure, maybe reduce hunt bonus to 33%
Portuguese: reduce berry bonus to 20 or 25%
Incas: reduce the food bonus by another 5%
Mayans: not sure, maybe make El Dorado a bit more expesive

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Well all Chinese can do is simply just drop multiple Barracks before reaching Imperial and tech into Halb faster than opponent can due to the discount bonus and you get another and more resource efficent army to counter Cavalry as well, without mentioning Chinese still will do Camels in castle age in notable numbers to keep Knight numbers low while having better economy and boom than opponents, that change won’t do anything at all.

My man look at what are you even suggesting, as I explained you nullify multiple units against Scouts at once and push the civ to simply go full scouts every game, let alone your other idea on free PA in castle age for non gold-reliant units, on top of free Light Cavalry is simply wayy too much, let alone that Turks don’t need even more resources saved on their military as they already save a lot.
Turks don’t need even changes at this point, is fine for them to be worse on aggresive maps when they are top on closed.

Monaspa for sure needs more nerfs (though after wcthing one game of Hera vs ACCM I no longer think Monaspas are OG Steppe Lancer OP level), but other aspects of the civ need to be toned down too (Starting resources and the Cavalry HP regeneration notably).

Fine.

I would rather left this one as ci so they are competent on other maps but nerf their team bonus to 15% and remove the Gold discount from Monks (they shouldn’t be able to push soo easily in castle age with cheap Monks).

Don’t think this bonus needs more nerfs, this bonus would be just to low if nerfed more, better slow down the Slinger training time so give Infantry civs a window to counter Incas.

Nerf archer discount is a better way.

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Yep. I knew they won’t do any good.

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First of all a great thanks to your efforts, this is awesome. Can you please share the link for the stats you recorded from The Championship invitational.

Yes I agree with you, the civs with an average value of 5 should be nerfed a bit for Arabia, and the ones below 20 should definitely be adjusted a bit to make them more usable on Arabia while less broken on whichever map they’re overused.

That’s a good change for many open maps where cav civs are the meta but not sure if its enough for Arabia though. Nevertheless I’d be glad to see such a change.

I think this will make free +2 armor on scouts in castle. So that’s light cav and 2 armor for free which is quite huge. I’d do something like scout and spears take 30% less damage from ranged units.