The Byzantine Empire Civilization Suggestion

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
102

Nice post, bwee bwee! I would love a hardcore defense civilization added with crazy building bonuses even more extreme than the HRE.

103

We must be clear if we are going to talk about the Byzantines.

To begin with, the division so commonly used for the Byzantines being that of “Greek Culture, Roman Law, Orthodox faith” was thwarted and no longer has any support in the field of modern Byzantinism.

All the legal documents that we have from the Byzantines, that come from southern Italy, East Asia Minor, Central Greece and Mount Athos, rarely invoke any Roman law and unlike what the post suggests, the Byzantines referred to anyone who did not knew Greek as a barbarian, a tradition inherited from his Greek ancestors and not from the Romans.

In fact, the Byzantine emperor Michael I referred to the Latin language as “Barbaric” in an exchange of letters with the Pope of Rome in which he was reproached for having lost the Roman traditions and lifestyle.

Finally we have the Hellenic culture whose role in Byzantium makes it different from any other empire. The Byzantines were educated following the Greek classical and Hellenistic literature and very often applied them in any civic aspect.

1 Like
104

I’d like to congratulate our friend @CommendedOwl62 for the original post. He has put some serious effort (and humor) into historical research and research is the most precious gem in the forum. This is a contribution.

The Turks/ Ottoman Empire & the Byzantines are the absolute supreme civs left out of Age of Empires IV and the perfect duo for a first DLC.

I’d like to point out that the Byzantines are the golden unparalleled opportunity to really bring the 3rd Victory Condition, the Wonder, back to Age of Empires series, because of awe-inspiring Hagia Sophia.

In this regard, I’ve proposed a design for WONDER BONUS for the Byzantines to really make a difference in the game (they have a Wonder in age 3) in the ‘Turks Topic’:

@CommendedOwl62 and all friends here are invited to read, comment, suggest and contribute to the Turks/ Ottoman Empire Topic above. Thank you.

1 Like
105

Would they start speaking Latin or would they speak Greek from the start?

1 Like
106

Some of the bonuses in terms of the percentage increases seem high, but other than that it sounds really cool, I didnt know the Byzantines deployed horse archers either.

1 Like
107

Hi,

Yes, the Byzantines deployed Horse Archers. However, on the other hand: So did the Chinese, the Persians and probably EVERY other faction that every existed as a separate political entity on or in the proximity of the Eurasian Steppe. Deploying Horse Archers doesn’t mean using them as effectively as the Mongols, the Huns, and so on.

It really is a broader question of whether the Rus should really have unique access to the “Horse Archer”. I’d say that in the end the Horse Archer should be a unit that multiple factions have, just like the Ribauldiquin can be produced by both the English and the French.

1 Like
108

The Ribauldiquin isn’t produced by the English or the French, though :disappointed:

Not many factions should have horse archers. Annoying.

109

The Basileía Rhōmaíōn’s(supposed to be the official name of Byzantines) own version should be renamed as hippotoxotai. Additionally, after reviewing the proposal of new Basileía Rhōmaíōn civ, here come some of my ideas as its supplements:

  • Since Age2, each town centre of Basileía Rhōmaíōn can recruit specific numbers of akritai and ippoakritai(they are javelin units, on foot or mounted, with short range and high base attack, can be trained in modest price without occupying population slots. Aging up will increase their training limit).

  • Mourtatoi upgrade can be added to foot archer line in Age 3 to replace ordinary bows with composite bows, thus bring them extra gold cost, but also grant them extra armour, range and attack.

  • Menaulatoi upgrade can be added to spearman line in Age 3 to swap spears for pikes(that means +1 range, extra attack , attack bonus when bracing and against mounted units) and add some armour, though also comes with extra gold cost.

  • Stratiotai upgrade can be added to horsemen line in upgrade to grant them extra armour and speed.

  • Siege workshops of Basileía Rhōmaíōn can still produce gunpowder-driven artilleries, but with more producing time than other civs.

  • There will be no ordinary crossbowmen for Basileía Rhōmaíōn, but Italian districts upgrade can be added to their markets of in Age 3. This upgrade allows them to hire Gasmuloi(crossbowmen with some armour and attack bonus against ships and siege engines, then can also swap crossbows for arquebuses by Touphakyphoroi upgrade in Age 4).

1 Like
110

Really like the OP ideas and general approach here. The mix between defensiveness and stealth/sneak attacks is pretty cool. I think your thoughts about the Cataphract are very spot on, they were eventually superseded by western knight. I think after the Logistica upgrade they would act like slightly more armoured Fire Lancers.

1 Like
111

These factions are the only ones that have access to this siege unit

112

Villagers should speak Greek during the entire timeperiod.
Military units could be more complicated. Perhaps a combination of both. Or having some units speak Greek, while others speak Latin.

113

Didn’t they stop speaking Latin during the reign of Heraclius?

114

I know what you’re saying. it’s not a terrible idea.

Keep in mind though that when civs share these semi unique units, it becomes a bit harder to balance them.

As it stands, having access to the Ribauld, or not having access to the Ribauld are the same thing, because nobody builds them anyway because they are bad.

But if you make the Ribauld a decent unit, that buffs the French, and it actually buffs the French more than it buffs the English, because they have access to a 25% stronger Ribauld, and we obviously can’t buff the French right now, so the Ribauld remains terrible, and the English are down a siege weapon because the civ that shares it is OP.

115

Basically agree with everything, mostly all Greek, some military units or officials could speak Latin.
The Varangian Guard mercenaries were Nordic people and they should speak “Norse” (is that a language? Somebody help).

2 Likes
116
117

Suggested timeframe: 610-1453

The end of the Byzantine empire came on the 29th May 1453. This is quite clear.

It is to be noted however that since the term Byzantine is used conventionally, there’s no consensus among historians on the starting date of the Byzantine period. Although the start of the story of Byzantium is commonly associated with Constantine the Great and the movement of the Roman capital to the Greek city of Byzantion in 330CE (from which the name Byzantine is derived), the empire at this point doesn’t really fall under any (or most) of the criteria that justify this naming convention. Would one for example be able to characterize Roman Britain of 330 as Byzantine and make everyone understand what are they talking about? Doubtful. The convention is not so much chronological as it is cultural and geographical and is used to denote the Greek-speaking Christian eastern half of the empire first, in the middle ages second.

Some prefer to place this date during the reign of Theodosius I (379-395) and the establishment of Christianity, or with the division of the empire into Western and Eastern parts after his death. Others place it yet further in 476, when the last western emperor, Romulus Augustus, was forced to abdicate, thus leaving to the emperor in the Greek East sole imperial authority.
Other proposed starting points are the reigns of Diocletian (284-305), of Justinian (527) and of Heraklios (610).

The fact is that the process of Hellenization and Christianization, which transformed the Roman Empire into the Byzantine one, started gradually in the days of Diocletian, was dramatically advanced by the decisions of Constantine the Great, was accelerated after Theodosius I and was concluded during the reign of Heraklios.

I therefore suggest as the most adequate starting date for a potential Byzantine civ in this game the year 610, when the reign of Heraklios begins. Not only is it closer to and aligns somewhat better with the starting dates of the rest of the civs but Heraklios was also the first Byzantine emperor to assume the Greek title Basileus ("βασιλεύς" ) (king/emperor) instead of Caesar. In addition, although Greek was always the predominant language amongst the populace in this part of the empire, it was during his reign that it officially replaced Latin in administration.

I believe that this date does more justice to the character of the Byzantine Romans, to how their identity evolved in the later centuries and to their thoroughly Greek element. Meanwhile it gives the opportunity for a presentation of a Byzantine civ that is more culturally unique to be differentiated from and contrasted with the rest of the European civs and their respective Latin, Germanic or Slavic elements.

1 Like
118

I don’t know, I would like it to include Justinian as well (gothic wars, etc …)

119

I agree with you 100% here and I really hope that they do their research well, and see that the Greek roots and the Greek culture/religion was the main foundation of the empire (Eastern part in particular) which was where Constantinople was located (Greek city).

This is what I want to see in AoE4’s Byzantine Empire when added:

  • All the villagers and soldiers to speak Greek which evolves through the different ages considering that Greek was the main language spoken by everyone in the Empire.

  • Now when we have a better version of the walls I’d like to see a defensive civilization that grants bonuses to the stone walls, considering Constantinople is famous for the great wall defenses as well as adding perhaps special defensive research that can be applied to the Stone towers & other defensive buildings, for example Greek Fire.

  • As the Orthodox Christianity played a huge part of the Greek religion within the empire, I want to see bonuses applied to the Monks and church to give certain bonuses that other civilizations doesn’t have to make it unique.

  • The wonder building for the Byzantine empire can only be the Hagia Sophia or maybe make it one of the landmark options.

And much more…

I’ve high hopes for this but something tells me that they will screw this up, just like they did in AoE2.

1 Like
120

Guys why don’t you consider to consolidate and merge this topic with @CommendedOwl62 's Byzantines topic?

I’m more hopeful they’ll get it right this time. That’s the purported point of AoE4, authenticity.

1 Like
121

Let’s hope so!
I agree let’s merge it with the other topic.

1 Like