The Cavalry Archers

New patch, same story.

CA is in no position to receive buffs. It’s been unchanged since practically forever and never nerfed, and has been viable or meta in it’s current state for years.

Any claims that the CA and HCA has been changed from DE is baseless and without merit as we’ve had tons of time to confirm the precise opposite. If the unit is bugged, provide evidence and it’ll be fixed, as all bugs should be. We should not be buffing Cavalry archers for the following reasons:

  • Base damage of 6 makes it deal twice as much damage to Mangonels as Crossbowman, making it possible with micro to reverse the counter wheel.
  • High movement speed invalidates the generic counters of Skirms and Spears and forces opponents who want to eliminate them to invest into very expensive Knights.
  • Masses in lategame are absurdly population efficient and making the cav archer stronger in the early game neuters chances of preventing these snowball masses from occurring.

If we need to go over these again because the peanut gallery wants to complain about some nonsense irrespective to the actual strength of the unit I’m going to save myself the time and copypaste the bullets unless something unique and reasonable is brought to the discussion. You guys have fun.

Here, since someone will want this, G1 in grand finals, Huns vs Chinese, Viper goes mass CA. Seriously can’t wait to see how someone will try to ignore this to prove their point.

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considering it has more mobility then a knight and more damage then foot archers, that’s fairly warranted.

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What is this sh.itpost? Making Knights vs Cavalry Archers? You made me laugh so hard. 11
Skirmisher with Ballistics eat any kind of Cav Archer.
Cavalry Archers counter Knights
We see less Cavalry Archers because they are unchanged also pro players have no clue about this unit, so they say that this beautiful unit got nerfed.

Going with CA with a cheap CA civ doesn’t mean anything and does not deny their bad stat, theviper him self said CA are very bad for now, Hera, Nili and other pros said they are trash and need a fix, as a unit that must hit and run they are completely a big joke they didn’t hit and run they hit and die

Foolish claim.

Cavalry archers can threaten villagers with raids. Skirmishers largely cannot, practically a nuisance at best. Due to this, if you go skirms against any type of Cavalry Archer, you are conceding map control to the CA mass as you need to keep the skirms defending the base to avoid vill losses.

Skirms will only counter Cavalry archers in a straight fight and you don’t take straight fights against skirms when you have CA mass unless you are totally off your rocker. Cavalry is the only option for proactive counters on the map against CA. If you aren’t going camels or knights, you are going to let the CA player free boom, expand, supplement with siege behind, and you should lose for such a completely idiotic decision.

Thanks for outing yourself.

Actually, it means quite a lot. It means the best player in the world deemed CA good enough to use in a five-figure tournament in the finals. If it’s viable in the top levels of play it’s probably not in need of help. He used them. He won. That means they’re viable. Arguing otherwise is simply nonsense.

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This still gives away map control, If you push, the enemy will raid your woodlines. Wall in your woodlines? Congratz, that’s an absurd amount of idle time. That still doesn’t mean you can kill the Cavalry archers.

You can’t force a fight against them unless you pressure the base of the opponent, doing so will leave you open to raids, and if you walled in, the CA can kill your reinforcements for free until they get up defensive siege or cav. If you go back to stop the CA from cutting off your reinforcements they’ll just hit and run. There is no universe where a mixed ranged ball counters CA. You cannot dream up a situation where you can even force the fight to have the counter work unless you’ve fatslobbed a BF map.

No, please, keep going. I want this discussion done and dusted. If you say all the ridiculous things you want to say now, I won’t have to break off in a tangent to answer the new absurd proclamation you make in an hour. Save me the trouble.

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Congrats. Defensive SW can easily deal with those raids and do counter attack with your army.-

How can cavalry archers kill crossbow reinforcements? They die easily to them.

You mean, they will just run?

Or you just should learn how is the game played and what are the counters of Cavalry Archers. Crossbows, Skirmishers and Scorpions end CA player’s career. So what will kill your fwd xbow+skirmisher SW? Villagers? Why do Huns, Tatars etc. never make CA vs Archers civs? Why are Franks considered one of the worst civ against CA civs, you said that Knights are the CA counter. LOL.

As of right now, yes. That’s the point. If they gut the frame delay, Cav archers will kill Mangonels with a bit of micro for free. Going scorpions is a bad idea against cav archers because either mangonels or knights are standard fare for followup, sometimes both.

By shooting them. Like they would any unit. When the unit is walking to the front from your ranges, they aren’t supported by your entire army. You either send the army back to regroup, or you don’t send out army until the CA leaves, which will only ever happen when you force them away by pulling your military back. CA have the speed advantage. You literally have no choice in the matter as to when they’ll fight you. You can only pick a spot where they can’t be. That’s not good.

I know how the game is played. You’ve made a lot of absurd assertions here, so from the top:

  • Crossbow
    doesn’t keep up with the CA, can’t force a fight.
  • Skirmishers
    doesn’t keep up with the CA, can’t force a fight, can’t damage villagers.
  • Scorpions
    doesn’t keep up with the CA (or any unit for that matter), can’t force a fight.

Anything. Literally anything. You’ve made a monolithic army composition to handle CA. They can make knights, siege (in general), skirms, the works. Nothing you’ve put on the field is an effective threat to buildings, so simply walling you out or dropping defensive buildings will also work. The only unit you are capable of winning against in a fight with the composition you’ve chosen are the Cav archers that they will never engage you with (why when they’re slaughtering your villagers, denying your expansions and resources?) and possibly the scouts they made a few of in Feudal to pick off skirms.

As for “never making CA vs archer civs,” I guess the Chinese don’t have archers and can’t make archers, since Viper made CA against the Chinese on Huns and won. Guess what Liereyy made as defense? Archers, Skirms, and… Oh wait, he knows how to play the game, and as such, as soon as he saw the Cav archers he switched away from his Knights, which were a foolish decision by your standards into… More knights, because he didn’t want to give away map control to the more mobile unit because he isn’t a ■■■■■■■ potato.

Got any more? I can do this all day.

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Did you watch the game he linked? One of the more important matches of the year, huns made CA vs an archer civ…

Im not even saying you are completly wrong here, but saying stuff that is so obviously wrong just makes you look pretty dumb.

Here’s some ladder trash game you can ogle, some rando named Hera making the mistake of going (mostly) pure knights versus Cavalry Archers with some defensive siege.

Clearly he has much to learn and you should be a tutor for these wayward souls.

A reasonable person might honestly not understand “why not just go for the units that are intended to counter them?” A slightly annoyed person would ask them to read what I’ve already said on the subject because I’ve already explained why the easy, no-thought counter loses the game.

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Wrong CA was different on patch 1.0c.

They reduced ca cost but increased frame delay in ca, mamelukes, mangudais and hc line, hd also has the same changes, remember the real skilled player base of this game played for 16 years using the CA for huns, so don’t come here pretending that they have been the same forever.

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Prove it. Show me the changelog.

There’s no evidence of the frame delay change, just a cost adjustment. Further, that was almost a decade ago.

I’ll ask the peanut gallery one more time to stop making an argument that I’m wrong because I don’t know. I have my original copy of my AOE II on my desk as we speak. I have a copy of the game where the Cavalry archer has a base range of 3 on my desk. I know what I’m talking about.

Remember when Paladins were actually uncounterable because halberdiers didn’t exist yet? This guy does.

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11111 a decade ago?

bro hd was a joke during 2013 until 2016, african kingdoms and later rise of rajas saw the light for good players until 2016, so those changes are pretty much recent for the large player base, you can search in the forgotten empires site for the changelogs.

As you can see 99% of the forum warriors from here ignores that mamelukes had 0 frame delay prior rise of rajas.

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I’m not a forum warrior and the Mameluke is not the Cavalry Archer.

The Cavalry Archer hasn’t been nerfed, ever. It hasn’t been adjusted since the cost change (which was alongside the hun discount nerf) and that did not include a frame delay change. You are delusional.

Given the advanced nature of technology in CURRENT_ERA I’m rather certain I could have my old copy of AOE running in ten minutes. Give me a moment. I’m gonna pull that up and see what I can’t make happen.

EDIT after a brief ten seconds of investigation, I’ve realized that technology has advanced past the need for CD drives, and thus my disk is currently obsolete. It’ll take a bit before I can actually do the thing I wanted to do to prove the point I wanted to make.

What I was planning to do was take a screenshot of the exact moment a CA fires in relation to how far into the animation a firing unit was, and then compare that directly to DE to show that they’ll fire at exactly the same relative time in both games, in terms of how long the delay was, but since I have no CD drive (OOF) I’ll have to come up with another plan.

I am the delusional yeah, that is why i am saying those changes were a decade ago, when they were changed during 2016-2018 when they were nerfing all aoc OP units, such as mangudai and mameluke, ca had a slight higher frame delay to reduce the old 3 farms 45 CA push from huns, they said they changed the cost only so other civs would have better ca but in fact they nerfed and buffed it at the same time.

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I’ve spent a countably large number of minutes trying to find a way to have the original AOE 2 run on my modern day computer. Suffice to say, as much as I’m craving the satisfaction of just showing you you’re wrong, I’ll unfortunately just have to tell you that you’re wrong as such a task which seemed certain less than an hour ago has turned into a mess of compatibility (shocker), dated era technology, and faulty workarounds. So I’m going to take a break, and… probably set back up my laptop tomorrow so I can get a clean ISO to work with.

This is not over. yet. >:(

Meanwhile, if someone with specific technical knowledge of the development process would like to confirm either one of us to bury the ridiculous tangent once and for all, feel free to save me the trouble. Just saying >.>

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Well, Larry made Camel/Kts/Skirmisher vs CA.

And that was a mistake? Maybe you should call him and offer coaching. He is only top2 in the world, after all.

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honestly after this year i don’t know if you could call anyone top 2. top 4 is def the kid/yo/hera/snek. but to put any of them on top? hard pressed.

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I hope you realisesd that Antagonist had much worse eco going 4 range CA and Scorpions did a huge damage vs CA, not Knights, lul.

So answer me again, why does Crossbow kill CA? Why is the Hun meta gone? Why didn’t Huns go Knights vs Spanish? Remember Knights counter CA. Why are Franks etc… considered terrible vs Cavalry Archer, they have the best KTS in the game, the ultimate CA counter.