The Jaguar Warrior's Dilemma in AoE II

Basically, buff the bonus damage first.
Maybe also get one or more of something below …

  • avoid the bonus damage from gunpowder, similar to Condottiero.
  • move faster.
  • get the bonus damage against cavalry.
  • get the bonus damage against building.

… to make it more useful on more occasions.

any else?

This unit is a beast in the imperial age, but is comparatively weak in the castle age, especially since the multiple buffs to the longsword.

Testing 13 jaguars vs 18 generic longswords (equal resources with supplies), on average it is an even fight. For the main unit that the jaguar is supposed to counter, that’s an epic fail. Against non-infantry units it’s weaker (10 less hp, costs more and only compensated by +1 attack) so it wouldn’t be a great trashbuster.

2 Likes

Problem with jaguar can be resumed easily they compete with champion but champions trade better against full infantry ,are more versatile, much easier to get, so why you want to get jaguars ? this unit have only 1 use : Dealing with huskarls / elite eagle raiding when you got no army because it is fast to get some jaguars but it’s a very very rare case.
On castle age it’s unusable because it’s too expensive to get a castle and uu which cost food only to counter longsword which are not that strong and crossbows counter them clearly better. In imp it’s simply almost always better to do champion even against full infantry.

Samurai is a niche unit but sometimes haves uses over champions, jaguars are just absolutely useless, that’s the main differences.

I wouldn’t say absolutely useless, but since the militia line buffs of de they become weaker and weaker like most infantry UUs. Aztecs champs are actually one of the best infantry lines in the game that can beat almost all other infantry lines, so why should they go for an even more specialised unit there? And a UU from castles?
Their militia line works great, so there is rarely any occasion when jaguars seem to be the clearly better choice. Only in very special matchups with other infantry civs - and even there it only performs marginally better than the militia line for the risk to have less producion and even possibly lose it if the opponent manages to take your castles down. Imo in most cases a completely unnecessary risk.

1 Like

Jaguars are also great vs Obuch, and even matched vs samurai.
I always be like…what if Garland Wars no longer grants extra attack to militia line, so Jaguar warrior becomes into the high attack infantry unit of Aztecs.

Yep exactly that, but even in a pure ressource invested, jaguars only win vs other champion because of the +4 if you respond by aztec champs with equal investemments even minus the castle cost , you will get better fights.

To being sure that i was not getting wrong on this one i just tested it in the editor 12 aztec post imp champ (45 * 12 = 490 food )
20 * 12 = 240 gold )vs 8 aztec elite jaguars ( 60 * 8 = 480 food )
30 * 8 = 240 gold) post imp so very comparable ressources and that is not even taking the castle cost into it assuming that castle are already there and in my tests champion won the majority of the time with like 2-3 champions remaining. vs japanese , goths or sicilians champ jaguars get destroyed completly, against burmese it’s very close (and champ +8 are still better than champ +7) so again why should we make jaguar even if for the niche it’s not doing his job correcly?

2 Likes

Quite compelling, to say the least.

IMO the cost is their biggest problem. 30 gold + 60 food is expensive for infantry, that’s 38% more than generic champions or 50% more gold. If you’re up against Goths in castle age then your Jaguars cost 61% more than their champions, and in Imperial this goes up to 73%. It really just keeps getting worse, as post imperial you’ll really only care about the 30g cost, while Goths are sending out champions for 13g each. That means they’ll continue to outnumber you by more than double.

They also lack the attack of champions, having the same 12 as Two Handed Swordsmen (this is somewhat balanced by more melee armor, but this still leaves Jaguars weaker against archers).

Aztecs Champions are great but they can’t win Japanese Champion in equal number and Slavs champions are better in mass fight. Jaguars are better when you have enough castle.
Also Jaguar can be answer against Armored infantry like Teutonic Knight if you didn’t tech into archer. The other Jaguar advantage is faster to tech. Elite Jaguar need only 45s to upgrade, but if you want to tech champion, the upgrade time is too long, it is easier to tech switch. Especially if you facing Flemish Revolution, quicker to tech is very important.
Elite version of Jaguar is fine. Maybe 5-10% movement speed increase is nice, not much help is need. The problem is non-elite version.

1 Like

Vs teutonik knight you never want to make jaguars, they will be completly destroyed even if they are better than champion in this case, this is like comparing the hussard or the cavalier vs persians elephants both of these units are not even a option even if one is not as terrible as the other.
You need to make arbalest , siege or even monks can do the job.

As for aztec champion being less good than Japanese, Goths, Slavs etc, first, aztec champion are enough strong to take close fight even if they can be slighty weaker than some champions and also the jaguars don’t do that much better actually it’s worse in almost all cases (maybe teutons champions because armor don’t do that much for jaguar ?? but still aztec champ are better in all cases than teutons champs and much easier to get)
No, really i could not find any uses at this unit outside of being completly surprised by any infantry unit which is important to deal when you make only crossbows or siege monk or just nothing (so huskarls , elite eagle raiding ) with as soon as possible and also have some castles (which protect in majority of cases enough the economy ) a VERY situational cases 11
Yes champions take more time than jaguars to get if some castles are already built but the time to get militia line to compete with eagles huskarl etc, is really short even longsword begin to being enough decent for this task.
No melee unit can stop a flemish revolution especially if you are surprised. You need to stone walls and make ranged units if flemish revolution break one layer of stone walls rewall as fast as possible and don’t care about your villager. you can try 30+ elite jaguars full up (and you can never make 30+ jaguars if you are surprised ) to stop a complete revolution of 120+ flemish militia good luck !

EDIT : Maybe bulgarians two handed can be destroyed better by jaguars because of their armor which impact more champions without bonus damage than jaguars? But again aztec champ win quite easily bulgarians 2hs

Jaguars lose 1v1, but they win with equal cost.

1 Like

And also mentioning the Teutonic Knight is wayy slower.

That’s underwhealming actually. I expect more from a unit that is designed to counter another. Jags suck.

Based on lanchesters law teutons would only need to field 13 % more value in TK to be equally matched with jags… In comparison Paladin needs + 44 % more value to be evenly matched with halbs.

Yeah, I agree Jags could use a buff. Maybe +1 attack and/or a cost reduction. They are technically an infantry counter, but it feels more like Halberdiers vs Cataphracts in some cases (takes a lot of them, and they die in large numbers while performing counter duty), only you can’t spam them from barracks which makes it tough when facing civs like Goths.

1 Like

In Castle Age that would be the perfect solution.
Longswords have 60 HP: 10+10+2 attack - 3 melee armor = 19 damage * 3 = 57
If the Castle Age Jaguar had 1 more damage output (base attack or bonus damage) it would kill generic, fully upgraded Longswords in 3 instead of 4 hits, like before the latest patch.
If this just gets fixed they are a much better counter to Longswords again.

In Imp +1 attack would not change anything agains 2HS
60HP: 12+11+4 attack - 4 melee armor = 23 damage … (3 hits either way)

However +1 attack would make the better against Champs
70 HP: 12+11+4 attack - 4 melee armor = 23 damage * 3 = 69 (nice)
So +1 attack (base attack or bonus damage) would make them kill Champs in 3 instead of 4 hits.

While I’d love to see them getting +1 attack in Castle Age, I don’t think the Imp change is needed.

Aztecs have a good economy and quite cheap units overall, they can usually spam a lot of them, so I dislike the idea of making the Jaguar Warrior cheaper.

1 Like

You forgot garland wars.

True I didn’t calculate with that upgrade. But however, I think in Imp they’re fine, just the Castle Age version sould get +1 attack (or bonus damage)

And there is something other interesting here. If the jags should be buffed via their bonus damage it needs to be increased drastically. They need to deal 39 (!) damage per hit against other infantry for any difference then. That would mean elite jags would need to have at least 19 bonus damage against infantry then.

But OK, I would be fine with that if that would make the unit more viable in exactly the situation they are designed for.

At least they would no longer have to worry about Teutonic Knights :rofl:

But on a serious note, +5 HP would let them survive another hit by a 2HS, +10 HP would be needed to survive one more hit by a Champ. I think after the recent 2HS buff at least the +5 HP could be justified for the Elite Jaguars.

2 Likes

It’s really interesting how a little buffs in 2HS and LS could bring some changes in the UU Infantry
I’d like to know if this buff on Jaguars can come with more buffs for other infantry UUs

2 Likes