The perfect solution to make both sides of the DLC debacle happy

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Posted this on reddit, and wanted to see what people here think.

Random shower idea time.

First, before anyone goes “there is no controversy, it’s just people on reddit”; it’s not. It’s on every platform in multiple languages.

Now with that out of the way, how is this solvable while keeping the most amount of people happy?

Well first, what are the main wants from both sides:

  • 5 ranked civs
  • No 3K in ranked
  • No Heroes in ranked
  • Fix the Khitanguts

While I have seen the “simply rename them” argument, this does fall flat in a few areas like not removing the heroes, while also not actually removing the 3K civs. Instead it just creates weird civs that are not thematic with who they are actually based on.

But, I believe I have something that solves all of this without a colossal amount of effort.

Step one: Rework the 3K civs and Khitanguts

This is a bit more involved than re-naming, but the amount of effort varies per civ.

Wei:
Not much to do here.

  • Remove Traction Trebuchet & Cao Cao. Add the Trebuchet
  • Rename civ to Xianbei
  • Rework/rename the bonuses to fit the Xianbei better
  • Change the icon
  • Switch their monk and monastery to the shamanistic ones

Shu:
Little more here.

  • Remove Traction Trebuchet, War Chariot & Lie Bei. Add the Trebuchet & Scorpion
  • Rename civ to Bai
  • Rework/rename the bonuses to fit the Bai better
  • Change the icon

Wu:
Alright, this is where things get a bit trickier.

  • Give them the Khitans castle
  • Remove the Jian Swordsman, Traction Trebuchet & Sun Jian
  • Add the Mounted Trebuchet and Trebuchet.
  • Rename civ to Tanguts
  • Rework/rename the bonuses to fit the Tanguts better
  • Improve the Cavalry Archer and weaken the dock
  • Design a new wonder for them

Khitans:
Not as difficult here.

  • Design a new castle for them
  • Remove the Mounted Trebuchet (may gain Bombard Cannon. Depends if they need it)

Step two: (And…this is the most important bit)
Keep the original Three Kingdoms civs and designs and put them in their own mode like the Chronicles civs.

This preserves the Three Kingdoms campaign and civs for people that want to enjoy them, and gives people who wanted 5 ranked civs happy, while also keeping the 3K civs out of ranked.

The amount of effort needed here is much lower than designing 3 new civs from scratch. No new units are needed, just a single castle and wonder.

None of this has to be done for release, it can be announced that the 3K civs will be in ranked temporarily, before being rotated out for these new ones who would be very easy to create.

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I don’t think they’ll actually even try to fix their mess.

The least effort solution imo:

-Release jurchens and khitans (reworked) to the base game.
-Release 3K civ in their own mode with their own ranked ladder (as to not break their promise of it being a dlc with ranked gameplay).

That’s it, and the fastest way with the least effort. Because renaming the civs and redesigning them is not that much, but it’d be “too much work” for WE to allow FE to actually do it. It’s obvious they don’t care.

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You gotta add Tibet as well somehow.

I think Wei should become the Khitans, Shu becomes Tibet, and Wu becomes the Bai.

The Khitan become the Tanguts.

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I dont think there is an easy solution.

The only way it spliting into two DLC. The 3 kingdoms being a chronicles DLC in the exact same way it is now.

A Chinese DLC adding more civs like the Tanguts and campaigns for it like the Dinasties of India DLC.

I don’t even know why this is not the normal path they would take as it would make the most money with double the DLCs…

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This is all well and good, but i dont think it will happen. We havent even gotten a ‘‘we read your feedback’’ message, and there’s no way they’d commit to something this big in my opinion

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I feel like what you stated as “rework the 3K civs” is actually equivalent to introducing three new civs. They will still need to recreate most of the art and animations (except for something like the East Asian architecture set), as well as think about balance after changing the tech tree. If we want to make them truly fit in with Xianbei, Bai, and Tanguts, the workload should be not greatly less than directly introducing the new civs. Well, certainly much better than simply renaming them.

Once we replace 3K with 3 better medieval civs in multiplayer, 3K in single player should also get better accuracy… for themselves!

Absolutely, the more the devs are willing to put in to solve a problem, the better the results will be.

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why must remove traction trebuchet?

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I’m not happy with any of the proposed changes. I prefer the DLC staying as it is. With 3K unchanged and on ranked.

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The current Khitan castle and wonder are both Tangut according to people who (I hope) know more about this than me, why would only the castle be moved?

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Yeah, in the world of video games, the devs being silent means bad news. Nothing will change, otherwise they would have communicated, like in Age of Mythology with the AI art controversy.

Would you oppose of adding Athenians, Spartans and Archemenids to ranked?

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Something like this would be a good middle ground: the people who wanted to play these Civs precisely because of the gameplay can still get their five Civs, but the people who haven’t liked the DLC so far will finally have a reason to buy it.
later maybe a DLC with new campaigns + Tibet and East Asia is saved

Edit: Personally, I’d still keep the Traction Trebuchet for all three civs, even after the rework, because it somehow makes them more unique, even if they may not have used it historically.

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No. Do you oppose Meso civs on Ranked? They were medieval but didn’t have medieval warfare.

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Then there is nothing you would oppose. Is it possible for the devs to add a civ you would oppose?

If they where to be added today I would indeed oppose them, as they are more relevant to the Age of Empires 3 timeline. But as the original devs added them as a bridge for the end of the medieval age to the next Age of empires with the conquerors expansion, we can’t go back anymore. But you can bet I would design them differently.

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I disagree.
You remove half of the things that make each of the 3 Kingdoms interesting to play.
Your suggestion would be to basically remove them and add 3 completely new civilisations. Why remove them then, why not just make 3 new civilisations and just remove the 3 Kingdoms from ranked.
That would really make everyone happy. The new civilisations could copy a lot of mechanics and even units from the 3 Kingdoms because they are not in ranked like the 3 Kingdoms copying things from Chronicles civs.

Edit:
Sorry missed this part:

I actually fully agree with you post now.

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I think the new war chariot is pretty cool - looks good too - would be a shame to lose it, if the problem is the alternate fire modes, just remove one and buff the other.

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My idea:

Split the DLC.

  • 3 Kingdoms in a new “Legends” category (plus Khitans and Jurchens as bonus)
  • 5 East Asian civs (Khitans, Jurchens, Bai, Xianbei and Tanguts)

If you preorder 3 Kingdoms (until release) you get the 2nd DLC for free.
If you buy either of the DLC later you get a discount on the other one (of you can buy both in a bundle).

This way the DLC can be released as planned and everyone gets what they want plus more.

Details like which civs get a Traction Trebuchet and if that should cost Food aren’t that relevant tbh.

More important is that we finally get an East Asian architecture set that doesn’t look Japanese. At last give us a Buddhist Temple instead of a Shinto Shrine.
Why do the Byzantines, Mongols and Ethiopians get the correct Monastery but the Chinese, who are supposed to be the focus of the DLC, don’t?
A Pagoda Monastery would look really cool. Honestly even for Japanese it would look cooler and more fitting.

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Sorry for the long post…

The Han Dynasty did use crossbows on chariots, but they seemed to almost have the chariot soldiers hold crossbows rather than mount the crossbows on their chariots. A rare record is said to be in 99 BC, mounted multiple bolt crossbows were used as field artillery against attacking nomadic cavalry.

As Chinese chariot use was almost completely replaced by cavalry in the Western Han dynasty, the closest record of a (repeating) crossbow mounted on a wheeled device to the Three Kingdoms period is that of Yang Xuan (楊琁), Grand Protector of Lingling (零陵), who used it to suppress a rebellion in 180 AD. However, his modification of wagons was probably a sudden inspiration, rather than a conventional way. Later, there is no similar record in the story of the Three Kingdoms, as far as I know.

Personally I feel like it would be even more accurate to hand over the War Chariot from the Shu to the Romans. Its overall concept is very close to Carroballista, only need a few modifications to remove the Chinese-style decorations. It was a type of Roman artillery, a “hand ballista” mounted on a cart pulled by mules, described in the book De Rebus Bellicis, an anonymous work of the 4th or 5th century.

Alternatively, change it to a soldier using a hand-held crossbow on the chariot instead of mounting a crossbow on the chariot. This would be closer to how the ancient Chinese used projectile weapons on chariots. A typical Chinese chariot would be pulled by two or four horses and manned by three soldiers. One is for driving, one is for firing with a bow or crossbow, and one is for wielding a polearm (usually a ji halberd, or lance). Basically be neither space to mount a large crossbow nor spare energy to operate it there.

However, in any case, many factors did not allow Shu to use chariots. The most likely to use chariots were still the factions based in the Central Plains, such as Yuan Shao or Cao Cao. It would be a good idea to move “Chariot Crossbowman” to Wei to replace Xianbei Raider, as it can reasonably have the ability to charge to fire multiple arrows.

The Three Kingdoms, including Wei, did not actually rely on horse archery for combat at all, and the Hu tribes that were absorbed and served Wei’s military were mostly Wuhuan and possibly Xiongnu. The Xianbei, located further north, paid tribute to Han and later Wei as allies but were not absorbed at all and often repeatedly rebelled. Having a Xianbei horse archer become Wei’s UU is more like a legacy of the original Xianbei civ being modified to become Wei.

As for Shu, Juggernaut is a good fit as a UU at the Siege Workshop. That was a wheeled flamethrower covered in a roaring tiger appearance. It is said that Zhuge Liang’s wife invented it when they were suppressing the rebellion of Nanman.

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You are the one who say nonsense things.

People are upset about this dlc everywhere. You cannot find a social media where people are not upset about that.

And going into conspiracy theories doesn’t help anyone, let alone your credibility.

I think you are just thirsty for new content for multiplayer, since it’s been a year and an half without new dlc with ranked civ. But it’s not a reason to accept everything the dev give us if the product has issue.

I am myself more into the “silent community”, and this dlc made me so upset that I can’t stay silent anymore.

Because I like some of the new mechanics and UU added with this dlc… but I can’t accept how it’s introduced into the game.

And since the last patch is mostly fill with good changes, and free, they can do better for this dlc.

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The best solution I think. The most important part is to keep the trebuchet in the castle, and remove heroes.
Firstly, all civs have trebuchets, and that is somehow one of the most important balances in the game.
Second, if we want heroes in the game, we will play Age of Mythology, or Heroes of might and magic… :slight_smile:

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This definitely seems like the best solution.
The initial launch can just include 3K civs and campaigns in Chronicles mode and excluded from ranked.
The reworked civs can be added for ranked in a future patch.

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