Ah gotcha. I think they should still fill the anti goon role with the same multi as a skirm just be less annoying when doing it.
Personally I would like to see the unit become 4.5 speed, have the charged trumpet attack only give the speed buff but not the stun thing, and get 5-10% more rr so that treaty players can trade more evenly with skirms in standstill fights or something.
When state militia were launched, they were 5 speed. Now they are 4.5 speed. If 17 range state militia was too strong with 5 speed, I don’t see why bersagliere should have 5 speed with 20 range especially when both civs are able to get their advanced arsenal techs easily in 1v1s. It is very ridiculous trying to catch them when they are 5.75 speed with a 6.25 speed cuirassier.
As for the trumpet stun, I think things that take control away from the player whether it is griots, dazzling fireworks, or the trumpet stun are just bad for the game. Without the stun it would still be a useful ability for retreating/repositioning but it would reduce the visceral reactions opponents have.
Dutch banks also cost 250% more resources for 33% more hp and I’ve only ever seen one person send that card.
The issue of Italy is that its Industrial is very strong, in itself the civilization is fine, the only thing that in my opinion is very OP, are the papal units (almost all of them need revision) and the truth is that for me, regardless of their cost, they are too good, and the other thing that OP seems to me, agreeing with Kevin, is that the Lombards are very good too, maybe you have to change the exchange rates or nerf their HP.
The papal lancers are strong and very good in industrial mostly due to the shadow tech, the other papal units mostly suck imo, the papal guards are quite bad, bombards damage absorbing ability is just terrible and they’re low damage, never really see zouaves either. The anti-skirm skirmishers are quite good but situational and hard to mass, they also are quite bad vs anything other than skirms.
I don’t think lombards are good, taking into account their cost it takes them a good while just to pay for themselves and you’re investing resources that could otherwise be spent and be units on the field. Architects obviously can make them for free but that time has a cost where they could be making something else.
Every day I think more that we play totally different games my friend.
The papal units in practice are very good, good HP and good attack, of all of them as you said, the papal lancer is the best, but that does not mean that the others are bad as you argue.
On the other hand, the Lombards are very good, they offer very good economy and good trades, not to mention that, like the Dutch banks, they can function as walls that protect the player’s base.
Lol maybe, nothing wrong with different opinions though.
I do argue that most of them are bad, papal guard is a worse halberdier, bombards are bad because of the absorbing damage ability, zouaves are high hp skirms that also have the silly absorb damage ability and they are a skirm with no multiplier vs heavy infantry or light cav, not effected by CIR either. They should all be quite strong when you take into account they block shipments, cost 900 res and take 60 secs for a small batch to arrive. Only the papal lancer and schiavone are good.
I remember reading somewhere that they take about 4 minutes of constant trading to pay off their cost, so a lot of food invested that could be units. The only thing I like about them is after sending the basilica card they trickle xp whilst converting res which is quite good for the FI and spamming shipments.
Their HP is nothing special, they cost 200 res and have 3000 HP, a market cost 100 res and has 2000 HP.
Well, with that argument we could say that banks are not special either, they also take 4 minutes to pay themselves. They are still excellent buildings.
A house costs 100 wood too, but it only has 1200 HP. And if we compare it to a market, you only have the possibility to build 3, Lombards you can build 8 (plus, the more you have the better)
Well, here I can give you the reason, so far the anti light infantry and the papal lancers seem too powerful to me. The other units are strong, but compared to the previous two said they don’t seem very useful. In my opinion, the Papal Lancer should be available in Industrial, it is the most problematic unit of all.
Indeed though banks are unlimited sources of coin with no further investment needed, the lombards you need to pay for the building and constantly invest resources for 4 minutes to pay it off and even after that the ROI is terrible, certainly doesn’t make up for the lack of a second factory for example. I’d also add that banks require nothing else to be good whilst lombards require at least 2 cards, 1 being a fortress age and the other industrial, that’s cards you are sending worth 2600 resources to make the lombards good and that is going to take ages to pay off.
How do you get 8 lombards? Is that an imperial thing? Up until age 4 it’s a build limit of 5 I think.
I like the idea of the lombards and they can be helpful to macro but usually I just have a few so I can send the cards for 1500 and 3000 res, usually 1 from the age up, 1 from the card that sends a wagon and 700 res and 1 built by the architect.
Espera 8 lombardos? Eso es imposible no se pueden crear mas de 5 y los holandeses pueden llegar hasta tener 11 bancos (los mercados son infinitos de crear) ademas el banco seguira trabajando aunque no lo tomes en cuenta, al lombardo lo tienes que tener vigilado de vez en cuando para que no se quede vacio, Haber los Guardias suizos estan más o menos, no son un completo asco pero estan lejos de ser algo OP los schiavone, curiosamente son buenos contra artilleria si los mandas cuerpo a cuerpo tienen buen daño cuerpo a cuerpo, pero son dificiles de masear y son demasiado de un nicho especifico, el zuave es buen con el disparo de carabina pero cuesta demasiado masearlo incluso el doble que el schiavone y para eso prefieres el lancero papal que es bueno por su hp y su habilidad cargada ya que su bonus contra infanteria es bajisimo de un 1,5 que hey! no digo que sea malo eso esta bien para mi yo los uso para que me hagan de escudos de carne para los bersaglieris o la artilleria.
Bersaglieri are a solid units, but they are viable only because Italy can do a relatively safe fast industrial.
Bersaglieri cost 10 more coins, takes more time to train and are available only in age 4, so all those things make them weird to use outside of a FI.
As for the stats, only the speed is that outside of the norm, and they trade it with less ranged resistance. The attack is a bit above the average, not that strong and the range is the same of other skirms.
To conclude, while the beagle is good, it takes a long animation that doesn’t allow you to abuse it. The bersagliere also has to be the unit that deal the killing blow, otherwise they don’t get any beagle sound.
Papal units are strong, but it’s really hard to ship them and it interfere with the standard shipping, so it’s impossible to mass or spam.
I personally like the papal units and their basilica system shipment, since the units are good, and you have an infinite supply of them, but without taking any HC card slots.
Papal units aren’t bad, they are just niche units, and with the exception of lancers, they aren’t worth of spamming, but all of them have their role.
The papal guard is an early halb, with less attack, but higher multiple vs cav, so they are effective against cav as standard halbs or pikes, and they also have ranged resistance, so they complement well with standard halbs.
Schiavoni too are good, even if a bit too much specialized. The problem of both units is that it’s hard to send them in age 2 or early age 3, but outside of that they pays themselves of when fielded correctly.
Zouaves are a niche unit… Italy have them for the cases like treaty were the speed of schiavoni doesn’t matter much, and were their low ranged resistance hampers them. So you mix in bersaglieri and zouaves and you got a strong combo that complement each other well.
Papal bombards might seem weird, but people can say what they want, it’s still an heavy cannon on steroids, with a lot of HP and still above average attack. Even if not as much as an ottoman great bombard, it’s still more then most others artillery units. The bodyguard ability might seem counter-productive, but if used carefully it can be useful.
Lancers of course are simply really good, probably the best Italian unit, and I see no problem with them.
True, but that flooding of gold can be balanced only through the market, which means that some of them are lost.
In the super late game lombards are better, they can be used to balance your eco avoiding flooding too much of 1 resource, and they also incrementally generate more resources.
I believe that he got confused because you can build 5, but then ship 2 from the HC, and 1 from the age up, but the build limit stay at 5, so you just get 3 useless lombard wagons.
Although, if you send the advanced lombard card you basically double the lombard work rate, so it’s like you get 10 of them. I’m conflicted about that card, I personally don’t think that it’s worth to send, but I see a lot of people include it in the deck.
Lombards also train outlaws and mercs. People often forget that they are a combined eco and military building, so the comparison with duch banks isn’t completely correct.
The meta right now seems to be to add a second architect and 2 of them can build a lombard quite fast, especially near a basilica, so you get them for free.
Also, lombards mostly pay themselves off thanks to the HC investments, and it’s not uncommon to see a semi FF/FI with 4/5 lombards, and by my experience is a solid build.
As for the lack of the second factory, if they buff usury to affect all kind of resources, then it might be good, because you would constantly get more resources from investing that could also be invested again to give back more resources, and so on again and again…
Try to build 3 (after market, house and TP) with 2 architects and 1 from the monte di pietà card and before the uffizi card, it works well with a semi FF or FI.