This patch Balance Changes are incredibly UNDERWHELMING

Balance Changes take time - sure, but can we speed up the process? It’s obvious what we need and where we need it.
Don’t be scared of slightly overbuffing / overnerffing civs - just make more changes more often.
Overnerfed a civ? - buffed them again, ■■■■! even reverse the changes, whatever - just act.

Here, you can copy-paste it into pro’s hidden forum and ask them about their opinions at the same time take the few comments of new players or low skilled players (below 1400 RM 1v1) with a pinch of salt. At least of those who give you unreasonable feedback.

Balance Changes:
Scouts receive +1P armor starting in Feudal Age
Janissaries are no longer classified as archers

Siege Workshop costs -100 wood
Military units cost -20% wood (instead of -15%) except siege weapons
War Wagons cost 5W more (115W 60G to compensate for the above change)
I don’t really like this change, it is quite “boring” and doesn’t change much about not fun gameplay with Koreans. I think that some aspects of the civ should be thoughtfully remade in order to make the civ interesting. Something completely unique like additional TC for Cumans, Siege Workshop in Feudal Age, Khmers’ hoping into houses, farmers not having to drop off food. At the same time they could lose additional tower range in castle age if it makes for any difference.

Battle Elephants are no longer 15% faster as a civilization bonus
Battle Elephants receive +1 attack per age (starting from Castle Age)
Tusk Sword (Battle Elephants move 15% faster instead of +3 attack)

Padded, Leather, Ring Archer Armor free
Dock technologies cost -30% instead of -50%

Ballistics free (requires University)

lose Chemistry gain Bracer

get Siege Onager

Siege Engineers free (requires University)

Archery Ranges cost -40% (105W)

get Siege Ram
Leitis’ cost +10G (70F 60G)
Maximum amount of attack gained for Knights and Leitis from relics down to +3 (from +4)

Start with +100 Stone

Elite Kamayuk -1 melee armor
Fabric Shields (Kamayuks, Slingers, Eagles +2/+2P armor)

Longboat [Build Time: +10s (in total 35s) or 0.09 speed decrease (from 1.54 to 1.45 = 0.02 faster than War Galley)] or/and increase collision size (just as it was done to Steppe Lancers)

Elite Cataphract Upgrade -400F (1200F 800G)

Shotels’ cost -5F (45F 35G)

Karambit Warriors’ cost -5G (30F 10G)

Missionaries get +1 range (8 total = 1 less than a standard monk) or are faster (speed increased from 1.1 to 1.25 = 0.1 less than Knights)

Start with a free Boar instead of loom.

Hand Cannoneers are no longer classified as archers
(removes attack damage done to HC by Skirmishers)
5% accuracy improvement

Steppe Lancers -5G (70F 40G)
Elite Steppe Lancers Upgrade +20HP +1Att (total: +40HP +3Att)

“I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

For real though, there are obvious instances of certain civilizations being undeniably much or just worse than top. The reasons are also clear.
If I can come up with changes that make the game more balanced and more versatile without being paid for it then pros and devs working together should have already fixed the game.

So I’m asking devs:
Why are there no real balance changes this patch?

Best Regards


I slightly like the direction of this. But ill modify it slightly to fit the Turks. Instead of all stable I’ll say scout line.


This seems like a huge nerf to a civ thats just been nerfed twice recently.

Unless you’re nerfing vikings on watrr too, not a good idea on the dock change, as vikings will reign Supreme.
Like the armor change.

This sounds good but I wonder if its enough.

They literally do not need another buff.

[quote=“AlightJewel1130, post:1, topic:83617”]
lose Chemistry gain Bracer
[/quote]i like this.

Literally does not need a buff atm.

Just got buffed and had a solid winrate to begin with. And this could be hugely market abused

Honestly don’t think Incans need any love.

Anything I didn’t comment on I probably agree with. Though I need some time to think about the gunpowder unit changes.
Also not sure if Bulgarians need love or not

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A bit similiar to Silk armor?


Shrug, I just think giving it to all cav could be a bit too problematic. Its +2 pierce armor total.


Yeah they’ll suddenly become a top tier knight and camel civ

Edit: @AlightJewel1130 +2 total is totally bonkers btw, pierce balance is way more delicate


Exactly, whereas if you restrict it to light cav line its in line with current turk bonuses and helps their late game archer issues/trash issues some

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The changes I proposed took me hours/days to come up with and are based on hundreds of 1v1 and teamgames games I’ve played. In addition pro scene and general feedback from community.

The amount of buffs / nerfs done to the civ in a row doesn’t matter if the civ is STILL completely unbalanced.
In current teamgames the whole team needs to make sure to slow down enemy Khmer’s boom or the game is literally over.

Correct, if Italians are nerfed then Vikings need to be nerfed on water.
Longboat’s Build Time: 35s or 0.09 speed decrease (from 1.54 to 1.45 = 0.02 faster then War Galley)

It’s one of the most potentially overpowered things I proposed.

The fact that fully upgraded leitis with 5 relics in pocket teamgames is good and all doesn’t change the fact the the civ needs addressing in 1v1s.
Generally if enemy with a certain civ can do specific things in specific ways and it either works or there’s little but no other options, then the civ is not

fine atm

Giving a civ like Lithuanians that doesn’t have Siege Engineers to go for trash + Rams is crucial.
And it’s just one of many cases where you need to give a civ range of options it can go for. This civ is the most “one-trick pony” right now.
And this is one of few examples.
Same for Saracens:

Exactly it strengthens the civ in what it is good but the buff is not bound to one strategy. It’s not that strong as you think it is. You can choose from a lot of options to utilize this bonus.

Incas Eagles are much worse than Mayan or Aztec eagles. Realistically this change addresses pretty much only Eagles. You won’t be upgrading eagles to make just few of them. If you commit to Eagles in Imperial Age it means you’re not going to upgrade other units. It doesn’t necessarily make the civ stronger - it makes Eagles more usable for Incas.

The issue with Bulgarians is that castle Archers and imp Archers + Halb counters them badly, not even mentioning strong unique ranged units. The Siege Engineers allows them to tech into Onagers faster.

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I like the majority of the suggestions. Some of them were proposed from the topic we have worked on (1k+ replies), so several one would be pretty appreciated.

If the goal is to buff Kipchak just make the Elite upgrade have more attack and more range? That said the lack of range is intended for Kipchak and I’d keep it that way since zero frame delay for such a mobile unit is hard to balance, I’d increase the attack by 1 in the Elite upgrade

I think with gold, Burmese are okay as a civ, I’d give them leather archer armor and nerf Arambai accordingly, so their skirms aren’t trash tier.

gunpowder do need some help but I don’t think devs are ready to change mainline units so drastically.

Thats a pretty large jump in HP but with their upgrade cost, perhaps its justified

I’d even make it 30f
The rest of the points I either agree or @MatCauthon3 has already covered

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I do not know how Turks will be balanced but I do hope that something will fix them. Everything is better than now. We have also proposed several other options…

This is one of the best proposals.

This is more a rebalance… fine but unnecessary imo

The Italian archer armor was another proposal with very good consensus.
The water nerf is huge like this and unnecessary. If Italians got nerfed on water, I would say that 40% is enough, maybe rebalancing age up discount to 20% (this would be still a very big water nerf).

No need to nerf Vikings imo, since Italians should not be nerfed. The war Italians/Vikings matters just on Islands which is rarely played. So I would not nerf these 2 civs that bad, it is like giving mongols 20% hunt bonus because they are OP in land madness or map with a lot of animals…

Fine but they should get some more love in dark/ feudal. Even starting with extra resources is fine

These changes, despite good, are not necessary. Still liking the idea of extra stone for Saracens.

Goths and Lithuanians are risking a nerf… no need fo a buff

I like the idea of making uncommon units stronger, but I would be pretty happy if we see just the most important buffs on Turks (mainly), Portuguese, Italians, and Koreans…

The elite cataphract discount would be very appreciated

What is this shopping list? the devs have made some nice fixes and changes this patch. You are suggesting balance changes that would just throw off the overall balance completely. I don’t think you understand how balancing the civs work. No mention of the celts? only civ that actually needs a cav buff worst paladin in the whole game.


Celts are A/B tier civ and I’m pretty convinced Celts getting Paladin is an oversight from the original team at this point. They’re supposed to have bad cavalry


Celts arent in a bad spot and frankly I never understood why they had paladin to begin with.

I really love the ideas regarding italians, Portugueses and koreans but this specific turk buff with knights which have 5 pierce armor in castle age (x-bows deal 2 damage) would be too strong.

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If you need add balance changes to half civs probably changes are not needed. anyway good that devs won’t take such changes or we would have broken game. Goths Free extra boar, really? 11


Exactly xD …

I think the immediate needs are
Land games
Turks, Italians, portuguese, and koreans
On water we need to see more diversity so id like to see water buffs for
Portuguese, koreans, Berbers, Saracens, and maybe Japanese.

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No. Just no.


Nah, they are already good to mass

For all stable units would be way too strong. I personally would like the bonus, but only for the light cav line.

Overall, I think most of the suggestions you presented are very solid.

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Stop the balance changes. Game is good. Civs are fine. Most are playable and we have a lot of diversity in most maps. This continue change to civs is creating more problems then they fix. Look at the Goths attempt. Look at Malay getting bugged…

Persians and Khmer were OP in too many situations, they fixed it. Other civs are only OP under specific situations, such as maps benefiting their specific bonus.