Thoughts on minimizing the gap of Indians in 1v1 and Team Game

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Whenever we discuss this topic we always talk about how Indians missing Knight line (and BE) is a big deal in 1v1 and how broken their Imp Camel with +1 pierce armor in TG. But I think their other civ bonuses and tech tree is also responsible for this situation. I’m bringing 2 important factors other than their camels here -

1)Booming potential - Booming potential is one of the most essential part of being a good TG pocket civ. Cheaper vil helps Indians a lot for this. If we reduce their discount on vil and give similar food saving in some other areas which is helpful mostly in 1v1 but not that much in TG (at least not for pocket player).

2)Less Castle dependency - Indians players barely rush for a castle drop. They have one of the worst UU (EA is a bad unit even after rof buff as they cost food) in game and they don’t have that much important UT. Sultans is a good tech but costing 1450 resources (650s/ 400f/ 400w) for this tech is not worth in castle age. In imp when you can afford it, gold mine is almost ran out of the game and helpful mostly in TG again for the tread.

Imo these 2 factors help them a lot in TG then in 1v1. So I’m here proposing new balance change for them -

TB - Camel units +3 attack bonus vs building and siege. They miss knight line most when they are up against a good siege civ.

Civ Bonus -

  1. Non-stable units cost 10% less food instead of 10-25% cheaper vils. Initially you can think this bonus is as big as Slavs but in reality you have to pay exact same food for techs and upgrades. Slavs can afford them faster. A big nerf in TG as you have to spend around 400 more food on vils. You can save some from making infantry,skirm, HC and their UU. It can be safely said that all of them are 1v1 units and not the best unit choice for TG pocket player.
  2. Camel free pierce armor is replaced by the Sultans tech - all gold income +10%. They need a compensation for the vil discount reduction and saving 2/3 food per trash unit is not enough. Would not mind if slight change is made like starts from castle age and/or increased to 15% but does not applicable for trade, further nerf for TG.

UT -
1)Sultans cost 400f/ 300g and gives Camel +1 pierce/+2 Camel armor. A big factor (For me this is probably the biggest factor) about Imp camel not being great in 1v1 is that it takes exact same amount of hit from halbs as Heavy Camel. Even Saracens Camel survives one more hit thanks 10 more HP over Imp Camel. Imp camel needs to take 2 less damage from halbs to have the same feat as Saracens camel. Non-upgraded camel will also survive 1 more hit from pikes but remains same against anything else. Defensive structure will also do 1 less damage ( 2 less from generic) but you are paying 1450 resources for this. So they deserve this imo.

2)Shatagni gives 1 range to EA as well.

UU -

  1. Imp camel upgrade time increased to 160 seconds from 125 seconds. For comparison Paladin upgrade time is 170 seconds. Imp camel training time increased to 22 seconds from 20 seconds.
  2. EA bonus attack against building is shifted to Pikeman. Elite EA range increased to 5. We don’t have any long range CA unit in game. With this change an FU EA will have 9 range. The rof buff is pretty good but they still cost food and it is hard to go for this unit. Also they still lack a proper role in the game. With their long range they can support their camels from enemy archer a bit more. Still very slow though.

Tech Tree -
1)Remove Supplies and Thumb Ring. Swordman line is already a bit cheaper in food cost. Long ranged EA will not get faster rof just like Britons.
2)Get Plate Mail Armor. Maybe even arbalester too. Buffing infantry and archer would not make any major difference for a TG pocket civ.

Summary

  • Without going for these big changes, just change extra pierce armor with +2 bonus armor, increase training and research time for Imp Camel and change the TB. Camel will always survive 1 more hit against pikes while performing worse against archers. Will remain same against defensive structure. Maybe reduce the cost of Sultans tech in this case - 250f/250w instead of 400f/400w.
3 Likes
2

To be honest, having reached the point of reworking indians, i wouldnt mind to split them in 2 different civs, one of them boom focused, and the other one camel focused.

3 Likes
3

Very very possible but we are not having anymore civs in the game.

4

No. Indians are Busted, they dont need a Buff
6

Some interesting analysis, you might well have a point.

But the further I get into your proposed solutions, the less I like them.

  • Camels get (reduced) attack bonus against siege could be good actually.
  • Non-stable units cost 10% less food sounds gross. Just commit to it and give all units the 10% food discount. Doesn’t feel very Indian-y, but I understand the whole point of your analysis was that you can’t see a good way to maintain their their identity.
  • 10% extra Gold from all sources as a civ bonus feels far too similar to Turks imo.
  • removing thumb ring destroys their CA, which is currently one of their power units in 1v1s.
4 Likes
7

Thanks for agreeing with that. I feel like Indians literally have no answer to early castle monk+mangonel+pike push. And this is a very strong and effective meta nowadays.

Can be increased to 15% from castle or from even dark age. I’m against the idea of Indians losing Plate Barding Armor. So did not want to give them cheaper scout line. We already have 2 civs for them. And of course not camel. If Indians does lose Plate Barding Armor, then maybe…still don’t like the idea of cheaper scouts and camel tbh.

In 1v1 yes. Just half as strong as Turks. This one is actually very decent bonus except for the fact that it is an UT, not a free bonus. The time you can afford it safely, gold mine almost runs out and all you get 3 more gold per relic. In TG, you can do trade and the bonus is very helpful. I thought they deserved this one for free after the huge nerf on food discount I proposed.

It is for balancing out the long range EA. I proposed bringing back arbalester. So it kinda balanced out. Also this one is the least important change.

8

Saying that sultans costs 1450 resources is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You need a castle regardless.

9

Yeah I realized I could use better words there. “Invests” instead of “Costs”.