Time to make changes to the Byzantines?

NERD POST ALERT!
Sit back, relax, grab a snack, this is going to be a long one. And if you aren’t a Byzantine fanboy, maybe this post isn’t for you. :sweat_smile:
Disclaimer: Developers have done a fantastic job with the Byzantines from the time of Age of Kings and I want to make a claim that this is not a complain rant, just some suggestions about changes that could be made. Also, and it might sound far fetched, but I personally believe that one of the reasons Byzantines are now more acknowledged nowadays, is because of age of empires.
Having that said, I am perfectly fine with Byzantine the way they are. They are a balanced civ, suitable for low as well as high elo players. Also they are one of the least changed civs in game throughout the years, so it feels a little bit left out.

My suggestions are about both cosmetics and balance. So let’s start with the balance.

1- Fixing the the more HP on buildings bonus(40% post imperial age). Primary this bonus benefits castles(and town centers to an extent), but at the same time Byz lacks masonry and architecture, meaning that their castles, in practice, are almost the same with a fully upgraded generic one. It’s like they get masonry and architecture for free and nothing more, which alright but not that special.
I think that this needs a small buff. Not more HP, maybe some extra melee, pierce armor to offset the lack of the 2 missing techs.

2- The Greek fire. Imo this is one ‘‘must’’ fix. I’ve made of video demonstrating the extra range of the fire ship, does less damage since the extra range changes the arch of the projectile to the point it misses the target, unless of course the enemy is clumped, so the ‘‘missed shot’’ will hit the next-to unit.
It is helpful on dromons though, but not at Bombard Towers. The extra blast radius of the towers is almost useless, since you rarely attack bombard tower with melee units, if you do, you will most likely use something like paladins that can take the strong damage. Again in such a scenario the Greek fire, does not affect the defensive capability of the bombard tower.
So to me, either the extra range of Greek fire, should be fixed to be more accurate, or add extra damage? And make the bombard canon radius bigger.
(Despite all this, Greek fire’s special effect looks awesome though)

3- Cataphracts. I remember in Age of Kings, before bloodlines, Cataphract was the second strongest melee cavalry after Paladins. And it was perfectly fine since they were super expensive. Throughout the years, with the addition of newer civs, came new heavy cavalry units and the introduction of blood lines. The Cataphract become from one of the strongest cav units to one of the weakest (against other cavalry). And of course it is an anti-infantry oriented unit, but its expense to fully upgrade doesn’t not justify their role. In fact in late games, if you face infantry it is viable to use Hand cannoneers/arbalesters instead of expensive cataphracts.
So my suggestion is, either they get +1 pierce armor(to withstand a little bit better against archers/raids) or give them 10 more hp, or make the unit itself/upgrades cheaper. Imo these aren’t OP changes and it will not break any balance of the game.
Also, the Castle age Cataphract is totally crap even against infantry. Some extra HP would help.

Now let’s move to the cosmetic changes.
Let’s start with the Champion. It would be nice to give a little bit more flavor to the Byzantines, by resking the champion upgrade, to either Legionaries or even better to Varangians. I am not talking about extra bonus or anything, just a reskin to make them feel more unique(it was a 1000 years lasting empire after all)



Now about the Cataphracts, I would insist that they do need a reskin. Don’t get me wrong the new reskin is great but in my opinion it could look even better. Now it looks like this(first pic on the left)



I think and this is my own personal taste, they should look like more like this. Some random ideas, nothing specific.





They could still use their swords, although spears or maces are accurate too.

Last, and I believe everyone will agree on that, we need more byzantine HERO units. We have Belisarius with a mongol/asian icon and very low stats. I think it’s time for emperors to be added.
Examples could be Basil the II, the bad@ss Heraclius with his peacock feather helmet(he also known for besting Persian Generals in one to one combat) and maybe Justinian or Paliaologos. Many options here with very cool looking figures.








11 Likes

Lots of cool things that could be added to them indeed.

Given the reworks needed AND the criminal absence of a byzantine campaign (I refuse to acknowledge a fictional family at a remote outpost of the empire when you look how stacked their history is), why not combine the rework with a Byzantine campaign DLC with 5-6 full campaigns (each covering a major leader or dynasty) covering their entire medieval history ?

5 Likes

I like better campaigns that cover just one character, so maybe just Justinian/Belisarius or just Basil, or just any of the many characters worthy of a campaign

3 Likes

My list for campaigns :

  • Justinian & Belisarius
  • Heraclius (+ stopping the muslim invasions immediately after in Anatolia)
  • The Macedonians (Nicephoros Phocas then mainly Basil II)
  • The Komnenos (starting with the disaster at Manzikert, mainly Alexios, up to the 1204 disaster)
  • The Palaelogos (reconquering Constantinople then mostly on the defensive against the Turks, the last scenario being the reign of Constantine XI which ends with the siege of 1453 trying to seek alliances and disturb ottoman preparations)
6 Likes

Given that I love posts like this, I would limit myself to one interesting change:

  • Lose access to Paladin;
  • Logistica applies to knight-line as well.

If you want to buff buildings, you need to nerf Spears&Skirms spam a little bit.

3 Likes

They should get fire thrower infantry. Varangian Guards as a UU at barracks. Tanky anti infantry/archer infantry unit. I am hesitant to make them a unique champion but any ideas?

2 Likes

Give them the legio as champion replacement, while the varangian guard is a barracks UU that’s more offensive

You forgot to mention: Commands in the Greek language. Currently, they speak Latin.

5 Likes

Imagine AoE2 gets its first truly campaign-focussed DLC (obviously V&V doesn’t count) with five new campaigns, and they are all for Byzantines.

Can’t say I’d be opposed to it personally.

2 Likes

I couldn’t agree more. And Byzantine DLC? I know it’s never going to happen but I would go for it 1000%

I made a campaign about Basil the 2, and before I did I had about 7 different characters from the Byzantines to chose. Many options for campaigns.

I have to disagree with these points, although it’s not the first time to see them.
About the paladins, just yesterday I was watching a match and the Byzantine player used paladins. I asked him why and he told me that the enemy wouldn’t expect them(as he actually didn’t). People use them more often than we think. Also Paladins is the only strong raiding unit they have, besides Cataphracts. And in Byzantium there was a specific heavy cavalry unit, the Latinikon, which was basically mercenary Latin heavy cavalry.
Now nerfing the trash spam, it’s a big no for me, since it is their only actually good bonus. That and the cheaper Imp.

I would love to see the Varangians as a unique unit, but I can’t find any role that they could fill since Byzantines have a little bit of everything. A reskin for me would be just fine, no?

I don’t know why this is not fixed already.

I would pay for something like that. Not V&V again though.

3 Likes

In AoE1, Romans got 3 campaigns in Rise of Rome.This would be the same, but for Eastern Romans.

2 Likes

They could reuse the template for other major civs (Franks Saracens Turks Chinese…)

Franks :

  • the Merovingians : start with Merovech at Chalons, conquer Gaul as Clovis, then see the dynasty descend into chaos with his descendants
  • the Carolingians : as Charles Martel, re-establish a strong control on Francia, to see it greatly expanded under his son and grandson. This ends with the breaking of the empire under Charlemagne’s grandsons
  • the kingdom reforged : follow several kings (Louis VI the Fat, Saint Louis IX and Philippe Auguste) forming a proper stable kingdom from the failed state left after the Carolingians
  • the kingdom tested : Philip the Fair ending the Templars, causing a succession crisis leading to the Hundred Years War, first half until Charles V effectively wins the war
  • the kingdom unleashed : second half of the war following the madness of Charles VI, the triumph of Charles VII then Louis XI putting a true end to it while ensuring the demise of Charles the Bold.
2 Likes

I agree byzantines are a generalist civi with everything.But varangians as a castle uu makes more sense as they were palace guards.The whole jain swordsman units gimmick would have fit a varangian guard perfectly.

If the game had axeman line varangians could have been a unique upgrade to them.

3 Likes

We need a campaign for Byzantine. It’s so weird they never got a single campaign.

Also Greek voice lines.

9 Likes

Doesn’t make sense. How can Longswordsmen/Men-at-arms becoming Legionaries. You need a different infantry line. Maybe for Byzantines and Romans.

1 Like

Yeah. But the Logistica should not give Knights the bonus vs infantry but only a few trample damages.

sure. They can have Flamethrower infantry that could be classified as infantry + siege in the castle. The Greek Fire should also benefit it.
Before that the Cataphract could be moved to the stable as anti-infantry cavalry after stats tweaks.

1 Like

You say it’s too strong? If you want, the +6 attack can be moved to the Cataphract elite upgrade. It should be tested, but I’m afraid I’m not capable of doing so.

Byzantines might only benefit from a second situational UU from Castle (Varangian or Cheirosiphon) to offer a variety of situational units to their Castle drop play.

Everything else is unnecessary - various reskins - up to nonsense - lose access to Paladin (really?) or lazy Legionary to a defining medieval civ…

…for sure a generous buff to Greek Fire effect on Bombard Tower is needed. Or trample damage to Knight-line from Logistica, it will also be a hot touch, for the same price tho, because it will make Byz Paladin another, more convincing than currently, situational choice.

4 Likes

Pick one, Paladins with Logistica are broken

How are they broken? Byz lack Bloodlines and Blast Furnace, and you would still pay to give trample damage to Paladin, it’s not free.