I think if the attack bonus vs seige weapons is removed it will all be fine. Seige is an effective counter to archer units and taking away that counter is what leads to a lot of the problems dealing with Mangudai.
Or at least dont let them take down trebs so easily…a ranged unit with attack bonus vs trebs is very hard to advance against!
If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it.
Just use skirms and camels against them
When the forgotten expansion came out, the Mangudai’s bonus against siege was replaced with a bonus against the ram armour class (ie.rams and trebs) but it didn’t work out and they had to restore the full bonus (tho they did add a small delay to the elite mangudai as a compensation)
Ridiculous topic, Mongols are a mediocre civilization and shouldn’t be nerfed at all. In fact they should get supplies back which was taken away in a recent patch for no reason.
No reason to give them Supplies either, since it is effectively a dead tech for them.
It can be useful against meso, which mongols already struggle against. Removing it makes no sense from a balance perspective.
literally every tournament? Just for reference:
Here are the competitive settings for DM, and would you look at that: every match up is mirror
If you let your opponent tech into FU mangudai with good eco, you deserve to lose. I’m 1450 elo player and watch enough pro player streams to make this conclusion. They are fine as is.
you people are weirdly obsessed with tournaments oyu are not even participating in. Ranked DM Qeue is the vast majority of all Age oF EMpires DM games played. Ranked DM queue is not played mirror
Because tournaments represent the highest level of play where people give it their all, it is where balance matters the most, and will tell you the most about balance.
but the tournaments are, which tells you a lot about tournament organizers view on DM balance and it being possible or not.
DM was always played with mirror long before DE even in casual lobbies.
Ranked should be played on mirror too, just like tournaments, because it’s impossiblr to balance that game mode and every good DM player will tell you that
Maybe because those speak the most about serious DM play and how they show civs cannot be balanced around DM?
Also, 90% of the community are playing RM. Why would they balance the games around the minority?
The suggestions I’ve read are basically nerf, nerf, nerf but what do they get in return?
I’m not in favour of these nerfs, especially if it turns the Mangudai into a CA with nothing else in return. Maybe at best they could use a frame delay increase but I don’t like the idea of a unique CA which doesn’t have much going for it.
Personally I would rather give them other options, perhaps making their regular CAs more attractive instead of relying on just Mangudais.
But that’s just me.
No one wants the Mangudai to be a normal cav archer, for me i suggested two points for the mongols civ in general:
-reducing the fire speed bonus from 20% to 15%.
-reducing the speed of the imp unique tech (drills) for the siege from 50% to 30%.
I think this will be enough
I don’t think they should be nerfed like you said, but they should remove the bonus against trebuchets and leave it against only “Workshop units”
Treb is the only good “counter” to mangudais. If you can destroy their castles, they can’t be produced anymore, but even if you have 2 castles + units defending your trebs, a group of 20 mangudais just dive in, destroy the trebs and bail with minimal losses and I think that’s unfair. Any other civ would have to actually trade units to destroy a protected trebuchet, but not mongols with their mangudais
Just use skirms dude
You can have 50 skirms around your treb.
Mangudais come in, shot a volley of arrows. Kill trebuchets and go away with minimal loses. Yes, they would lose if they stay, but that would be dumb.
I do want to point out that this change was made at one point I think in African kingdoms expansion to nerf mangudai. They then reversed it, while adding pre-firing delay similar to cavalry archers.
As for mass archer vs paladin, arbalest or crossbow can do the same job, with worse mobility. Small number, cavalry win vs archers. With critical mass, archers always win. I believe there is another thread talking about this so I won’t delve into it too deep.
Since trebs are in the ram armour class, Mangudai were still dealing bonus damage to them. But yeah, it was’nt enough and the change had to be reverted.
Essentially you need something with high pierce armor to take down buildings/castles. That is what the rams and trebs are supposed to be for, however it isn’t a realistic option vs mangudai, so what are you supposed to use? Elite eagle warriors, malian champions or elephants? What if you don’t have those?
