Well, it was thematically fitting, considering the nature of post-Discovery Age empires.
The main issue was not even that you were establishing a colony, just that the colonial scale was too small, armies and economies were tiny, everything was practically automated, and the game was just not fun because of all of this.
Not to mention that the counter system had so many exceptions, there might aswell as there not be any counter system.
Lots of people still do not know that Coyote Runners are Cavalry, and you can counter them with Pikemen, for example.
If the late game Mongols are to be nerfed, I think the proper way is to do it without nerfing their military prowess.
My suggestions are:
to remove Hoardings from their tech tree. Pushing Mongols can be hard with Mangudaiâs anti siege bonus, nerfing their main defense sounds like a good idea.
And increasing Elite Mangudai tech cost to 1200f 700g (from 1100f 675g). Its not much but its there and reflects the price of an Elite upgrade of a good UU more
I think the bonus damage against siege weapons should stay the same and be the trademark of the mangudai, but they have to be a little less strong in other areas.
Elite mangudai have 8 damage, which is 1 more than elite cav archers, and a bit too much in my opinion. Thatâs why even heavy pierce armored units like eagles and paladins, still stand no chance against mangudais (an archer, which they are supposed to counter).
Currently, they have very fast attack animation, bonus against siege, and 8 damage which is one of the highest damage for an archer unit. They combine too many strong points in a single unit.
It would be interesting to see Elite mangudais with 7 damage instead of 8.
To compensate for this, give Mongols another bonus, either eco bonus or something in the tech tree.
It would balance the civilization a bit, and make it less dependant on the mangudais.
That frame delay is everything specially adding the lag factor, both mangudai and mameluke were severely nerfed in WK/HD several threads and discussion were open back then, there might be a reason why they reverted/changed those in DE.
If you want to check real things go and do the next experiment, fight camel archer vs mangudai in WK and see hot the camel destroy mangudais badly, then do the same test in DE and see how the camel barely wins but if micro is added mangudai wins, that is how big the added frame delay impacted in the unit back then.
I canât see how they donât counter them hard. Those tests must be backward. They have the same frame delay, same HP, same damage, 1 more pierce armour, a +6 (!!!) bonus against Mangudai, only 15% slower RoF, are 5 wood/gold cheaper, and train slightly faster.
With the unique tech, they also regenerate.
If anything, Camel Archers are almost identical to Mangudai except having a Cavalry Archer bonus instead of Siege.
They also have kasbah, so that slightly faster is faster then it looks.
throw in regenâŠ
i think the only thing holding them back is that they move slower.
Just tested it. 25v25, 16 Camel Archers left in Post-Imp, 19 left in Castle (Feudal upgrades). Thereâs literally no way that Mangudai donât get completely shredded vs Camel Archers.
The frame delay is the same between the two� Not sure where you got that idea.
There was literally no change for mangudais between HD and DE. Youâre just making things up.
Also, you claim several threads were open about mangudais, please give links because I donât see any. Mangudais in their current form (since 2016) have seen 0 complaints of being too weak.
The problem is you cannot counter mangudai. There is only ONE unit most civs can use, and that is the elite skirmisher. However, that is barely even a counter, because the mangudai can just run away and snipe. It was suggested that BBC can counter the onagers a mongol player might use to counter the skirmishers. But oops, the mangudai are so fast and have insane bonus versus siege so you cannot even build siege vs them.
How are you supposed to take down a castle when the mongols will always beat you to castle due to the hunt bonus? And then they get a unit which can easily snipe trebs. And is good against EVERY other unit except for one. âDonât let them get thereâ does not indicate good balance. AOE is supposed to be a game of using MULTIPLE unit combinations to counter each other. Spamming one uber unit doesnât really match the rest of the civs nor the idea of the game. Its not really very fun to be forced to make only one unit, skirmisher, and even then it isnât very good. All other units have multiple options for countering it.
I admit, I am biased, in that I personally have never played a game I enjoyed vs Mongols. In fact I hate playing vs them and wish the civ was just deleted. Even the people who use Mongols agree that they are OP and annoying to play against.
By the way, can anyone tell me if rams work vs mangudai in the current patch or not? Do they have bonus damages versus rams or not?
The bonus vs siege could be lowered to +2 / +3 instead of +3 / +5 for Mangudai/Elite Mangudai. That way they still do well against siege but not so well - they would have to sit there for a bit longer to kill siege taking some more damage from counter units at least.
At the same time I would remove the 0 melee damage from Chu Ko Nu and Kipchak - these units also murder rams insanely fast - even without the melee damage they would still do better vs Rams than other archers thanks to the multiple shots. The Melee damage is just insane against rams. At least they canât snipe trebs as easily as Mangudai.
Paladins need to be nerfed long before Mangudai are touched. Leave Mangudai alone and donât nerf one of the few things in this game that requires mechanical skill to use well.
No they donât. Paladins are not do-it-all units and are melee, meaning that you can always throw halbs at them and they will suffer heavy losses. In the meanwhile, mangudais can just go and snipe siege like itâs nothing with their ridiculous bonus. In anything, itâs the standard CA which should be buffed.