Too many civs have access to bombard cannon

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
42

Yeah, a terrible synergy. Cheaper/stronger castles which are difficult to take down with trebs sucks. Especially if you are playing as a civ without BBCs, like vikings, japanese, sicilians, or even mayans, it sucks having to deal with frank castle spam with BBCs.

Franks are rather strong in the late game, so I don’t understand why the berry bonus was given to them. This could be removed instead.

But Vikings have Champions with bonus damage against Cavalry and more HP against the Franks Paladin and Arbalest against Axemen/HC. I would be rather confident with Vikings against Franks, but Vikings are imo overall the strongest civ, so maybe I am biased.

Japanese have faster Trebs and better Halberdier. Samurai maybe against the Axemen, but HCs likely become a big problem. But Japanese overall kinda suck if they make no good use of their combination of bonus. They have to convert their cheap economic building bonus and/or fishing binus into Infantry spam in Feudal and Castle, otherwise they kinda suck against many civs imo.

Mayans and other american civs are supposed to be weak against gunpowder in imperial age.

Okay, wait. I’m specifically talking about BBCs. Don’t generalize this to “other aspects”. You want to give strong infantry like with bulgarians, or gunpowder (except BBC), go ahead.

An interessting aspect of Franks are their castles, and BBCs contribute to that. If there is a problem with Franks gunpowder than it is HC, because it makes their unique unit and therefore also their castles less important, what does not really fit their idea, and makes them maybe too strong against Infantry. But now it is maybe a little bit too late to remove HC, they could have done it in 2000. The devs should not get into the habit of removing units from established civs.

Remove the berry bonus, and see what the result is. The devs seem to agree that the berry bonus is the aspect to change, but they shy away from removing it entirely.

1 Like
43

What are you talking about?
Franks - 1v1 Random Map | 1200+ - aoestats Vikings - 1v1 Random Map | 1200+ - aoestats
Franks have a win rate about 5% above Vikings. . You can consider Vikings stronger, but you’d just be factually wrong.

Doesn’t mean it isn’t bad design. Also, that isn’t even true, at least for Incas and even Aztecs.

Yeah, it contributes to bad gaming experience against franks. They’ll make like 20 castles, and if you try to treb it down, they’ll snipe the trebs. How many times do I need to repeat this? If it were upto me, I’d absolutely remove BBCs from franks. But it isn’t. There are a lot of Frank simps in the community who want them to be the strongest, so they’ll keep being the strongest. That’s that, imo.

I don’t know why you keep saying this, we just disagree on this point. If it contributes to a positive experience, remove units, that’s fine. Else, don’t.

They should get rid of the farm bonus imo. That’s far stronger than berry bonus.

44

What are you talking about?
Franks - 1v1 Random Map | 1200+ - aoestats Vikings - 1v1 Random Map | 1200+ - aoestats
Franks have a win rate about 5% above Vikings. . You can consider Vikings stronger, but you’d just be factually wrong.

I m talking about my own impression of the civ. Looking at the data I have 61.9% win rate with Vikings, but also 63.9% win rate against Vikings, so I guess they work better for me than for others.

Regarding the overall strengths of civs for all players you can imo not just take the 1v1 ranked, as ranked 1v1 does not include all map types atm, and therefore isn’t representative of the game overall anymore. Vikings have like 15% higher win rate on water maps compared to Franks.

Doesn’t mean it isn’t bad design. Also, that isn’t even true, at least for Incas and even Aztecs.

I think it is good game design because weaknesses open room for strength. And the strengths of american civs are fun.

What do Inca an Aztecs against HC?

Yeah, it contributes to bad gaming experience against franks. They’ll make like 20 castles, and if you try to treb it down, they’ll snipe the trebs. How many times do I need to repeat this?

Losing is usually not fun. So it is just about balancing the win rate of Franks. Not the characteristic of Franks but the strength of Franks is the problem on Arabia-style maps.

They should get rid of the farm bonus imo. That’s far stronger than berry bonus.

But they always had the berry bonus. We need monument protection for that. It has also a greater effect on the build order than the berry bonus. The berry bonus was introduced later and it was just a mistake.

45

With all due respect, I don’t care. I don’t expect you to care about my winrates with a particular civ either. These things should be considered with the general populace in mind.

So? Like 1% of games are played on full water maps. About 45-50% are played on arabia.

Incas have their own HC, the slingers. Then they can add in a few skirms for extra damage. Aztecs have skirmishers with +1 range, AND +1 damage. They will outrange HCs, and can even handle hussars in low enough numbers. Aztecs also have Siege Onagers. Gunpowder civs make BBCs to counter them? Aztecs have the best monks in the game to snipe convert those.

I don’t know how many times I need to repeat this. “They always had it” is not an argument in my book. I don’t care, unless it is iconic of the civ.
As far as I’m concerned, you need to pick one civ bonus, and one UT that is “iconic”. In some cases, 2 of either category, but not 2 of both. But that’s it. IMO, cheaper castes is the iconic bonus of franks. Everything else can go/be changed.

46

With all due respect, I don’t care. I don’t expect you to care about my winrates with a particular civ either. These things should be considered with the general populace in mind.

Well according to this statistic Franks have a worse winrate against Vikings then overall: https://aoecompanion.com/stats/civs/franks

So? Like 1% of games are played on full water maps. About 45-50% are played on arabia.

Well atm 0% are played on water maps, because they are not included in ranked. That around 50% of the games are played on only one map also shows, that ranked is not really representative of the game overall.

Franks are very good on Arabia but usually worse on most other maps. I think Franks should be nerfed a bit, ### it is mostly a map-specific problem.

I don’t know how many times I need to repeat this. “They always had it” is not an argument in my book. I don’t care, unless it is iconic of the civ.

A player who played a civ 20 years ago, and comes back to the game now, should still be able to play the civ in the same way. And new players should be able to play the real legendary game of AoE2.

But there could be mod for an AoE2.5 with heavy changes, where also the 150 suggested civs in this forum could be added. But it should not be Standard-AoE2. For example Dota was deveolped as a mod for another game.

I don’t understand the mentality of wanting to change everything. This can easily ruin the game. Look at other games lik LoL, its a total joke because of changes now, because the devs did not have respect for the game and wanted haughtily to realize their own shitty ideas.

But overall I have to say AoE2 and Dota 2 developers show respect for their games and do an overall good job, while devs for some other games simply suck. When I read AoE2 patch notes I usually understand the ideas of the chnages and agree. They do not randomly remove something like the Franks castle discount or farm bonus, because someone had an “smart” idea.

51

You were looking for what you want, not the truth. Sure, that’s true, but only if you went back in time to 2021. It’s literally on top of the page you linked.

Data for Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition from 2021-07-14 to 2021-08-18. Updated every week!

There is a whole group of maps including where franks are pretty good: LINK

This includes maps like Golden Pit, Atacama, Fortress, Gold Rush, Megarandom, and Yutacan.

But what is ridiculous is that Franks are far too good even on closed maps like Arena, at 1600+ Elo Range.. They still have a 52%+ win rate. So, they are exceptionally good on open maps, and they are pretty good on closed maps. That’s like 80%+ of the maps. So, now what?

Nobody has that kind of memory. I’ll be more clear. Nobody will remember Franks having BBC or not 20 years down the line if they haven’t played it.

Bro, I literally said in the last comment that you cannot change everything. Let me repeat that. I even highlighted it.

There are “qualities” that you can’t change. Like briton’s range, or longbows. Same for franks castles, and even the extra HP on the cavalry. I do not consider BBCs among that.

53

You were looking for what you want, not the truth. Sure, that’s true, but only if you went back in time to 2021. It’s literally on top of the page you linked.

I can just look at another website and find the same result. According to Franks - 1v1 Random Map | ALL - aoestats Franks have a 52.44% win rate. This site also has a Civ vs Civ heatmap here: Insights - 1v1 Random Map | ALL - aoestats which shows that Franks have only a 50.93% win rate against Vikings.

There is a whole group of maps including where franks are pretty good: LINK

This includes maps like Golden Pit, Atacama, Fortress, Gold Rush, Megarandom, and Yutacan.

Its not true for Fortress.

But what is ridiculous is that Franks are far too good even on closed maps like Arena, at 1600+ Elo Range.. They still have a 52%+ win rate. So, they are exceptionally good on open maps, and they are pretty good on closed maps. That’s like 80%+ of the maps. So, now what?

The sample size for Arena 1600+ is rather low.

Franks are very good on open maps with 54-55% win rate.

They are still rather good on semi-closed maps like Mongolia, Yucatan and Enclosed with around 52% win rate.

They are slightly below average on closed maps and it seems Arena is their best closed map with 50.60% win rate since the Dynasties of India update. On other closed maps they are below average. (Hideout 49.92%, Black Forest 49.61%, Amazon Tunnel 49.47%, Fortress 48.19%, Hill Fort 47.16%)

They are below average on Nomad style maps with around 48% win rate. (Land Nomad 50.76%, African Clearing 47.91%, Nomad 45.54%)

They are around average on Hybrid maps. (Skandinavia 52.80%, Kawasan 52.53%, Coastal 49.58%, Four Lakes 48.83%)

They are really bad on water maps with 38%-42% win rate.

So open maps are the only type of maps where a real balance problem is regarding Franks (beside water in the other direction). And they should be nerfed a bit because of that. Maybe so that they are around 50% on semi-open maps. But they need to remain strong on open maps, because it is their best map type.

There are “qualities” that you can’t change. Like briton’s range, or longbows. Same for franks castles, and even the extra HP on the cavalry. I do not consider BBCs among that.

For which type of map would a BBC removal be the hardest nerf?

54

That’s because you’ve taken all maps. I would suspect that a lot of people would pick Vikings on the few water maps, biasing the results. When you restrict the numbers to just arabia, that number is again 52%. What I suspect is that the eco bonus is carrying vikings in the middle game. If there was a way to select games that go into the late game, I suspect you’d see a different result.

We are talking about a late game unit here, afterall.

Sure. But you agree on the rest and therefore, the point, then.

Sure, but the point still stands. Sample size isn’t low enough to be ignored.

No, no, no. That is a misrepresentation. Hindustanis and Gurjaras were way stronger back then, and that sort of indirectly nerfed Franks. You need to take numbers from the overhaul to be even remotely accurate.

I gave you the number at 1600+ Elo range, on arena. That is 52%.

So are most civs. Let’s be honest here, water balance in AoE2 is complete garbage. You are either water civ, or you get destroyed.

Closed maps. Arena is the most important one. There are multiple reasons here. The most important being, closed maps do go into the late game very often.

I suspect that removing BBCs from franks will not drop their win rates on open maps by more than a single percentage point, if that. That’s because franks often end the game before it ever gets there. To the contrary, they will lose maybe 2% or even more on closed maps with the change.

55

What even is the topic other than a back and forth bloat?

4 Likes
56

That’s because you’ve taken all maps. I would suspect that a lot of people would pick Vikings on the few water maps, biasing the results.

You can select “Arabia only” on that website too. Then Franks have an overall win rate of 54.04% but only 51.20% against Vikings. So Vikings are 3% better then average civs against Franks on Arabia.

We are talking about a late game unit here, afterall.

But when a civ has a strong late game, why not nerf the early game?

Sure. But you agree on the rest and therefore, the point, then.

You mentioned a bunch of random maps. I tried to investigate groups of similar maps.

So are most civs. Let’s be honest here, water balance in AoE2 is complete garbage. You are either water civ, or you get destroyed.

Not sure. Needs to be tested more.

Closed maps. Arena is the most important one. There are multiple reasons here. The most important being, closed maps do go into the late game very often.

So it doesn’t even really adress the Frank open map problem the most. Imo it really makes sense to delay the powerful castle age and late game of Franks just with removing the berry bonus. It adresses the open map problem, and goes along perfectly with the history of the civ.

I disagree that Arena is the most important closed map. Arena is just one map of many. People should not only play 1 or 2 maps and then complain about balance. Castle drop nonsense on Arena is not just a problem with Franks, it is a characteristic of the map unfortunately.

57

Counter proposal: it’s not that too many civs have access to BBC, it’s that BBC affects balance too much. It’s too much of a game changer.

Reduce its anti siege damage, tweak other stats if required.

6 Likes
58

Then what is the point of bbc ? Onagers are better then bbc in other aspects. If you buff other stats then bbc will be more dominant; onagers will be useless now 1111.

BBC is a real game changer unit. killing 1-2 trebs easly let you win the trebs wars which is very important to finish game.Especially in closed maps; 1 treb makes huge diff.

59

I wish I could agree with you here, because I hate that map. However, it is by far the most played closed map. I don’t see how you can refute that it is the most important map.

Do both then. Franks have been at the top for years now, time for other civs to take that place.

Sure, fortress is the only fully closed map there. The point still stands, they are too good at too many maps.

It’s pretty hard to get a good enough sample size across full water maps. But what I’ve said is true at the pro-levels, at least in their opinions and civ picks.

I addressed this

Bring up a topic, or chime in. Nobody is stopping you.

Huge range. Onagers don’t outrange castles, and you aren’t taking castles with them. BBC can do that.

60

I have the probably unpopular opinion that both Trebs and BBC have too high anti-building damage for their range. Trebs could have -20 % anti-building damage (and possibly +15 % accuracy). BBC could even have 40 % less anti-building damage and still remain very viable. In the exchange I would possibly increase their HP just slightly.

When you compare these units with rams I see absolutely no explanation why super long ranged siege units have almost the same damage output as the ones that literally have to go melee to deal any damage. I don’t say SIege Rams need a buff, but if you make that comparison you can see how close the DPS actually are… that’s not well balanced imo when considering the range advantages.

And I have to say that I lately saw more and more of this threads that try to take away bonusses and/or techs/unit upgrades from part of the civs. I really don’t like these kind of attempts. Cause it’s obvious the TO only wants others to don’t have access to his own favorites. That’s hypocrit imo. And that’s also why I responded to the counter proposal here, as it is imo way more reflected.

61

I wish I could agree with you here, because I hate that map. However, it is by far the most played closed map. I don’t see how you can refute that it is the most important map.

When people decide to play a map, that doesn’t mean that they can rightfully claim that the balance that applies to all maps has to be directed towards that map. If they don’t like the balance on that map, they can play another map instead.

Do both then.

Only one at a time please.

The point still stands, they are too good at too many maps.

Propably no. Open maps specifically are the problem not “too many maps”.

I addressed this

Civs have different times in the game where there are strong. Thats normal.

62

That’s actualy brilliant suggestion.

I always think that BBC is too game-changer and way too versatile for the unit don’t need extra upgrade after chemistry. It can outrange castle, counter all other seige, and even fastest seige.

There is reason why Khmer being Top 3 civ on Arena before losing BBC and they suddenly considered mid-tier after losing Bombard Cannon.

What is point of Onager/Scorpion when they easily outranged and countered by BBC? BBC is also even more versatile than them for outranging castle/ also need less cost for upgrade.

At least Seige bonus damage of BBC should be completely gone. And Other seige in imp (Onager/Seige Ram/ Heavy scorpion) need speed buff to match the speed of BBC.

I don’t think bonus damage against building is problem. It is good for imperial age seige strong against building to help game end definitely. It is more of problem that how BBC is interact with other seige. Other seige workshop unit is mostly useless against BBC civ in imp.

63

No, the HP bonus for Knights → Cavalry is the iconic bonus of the Franks, not the cheaper castles. Their entire playstyle is based around that bonus.

If we’re gonna use the iconic bonus/UT argument, what then of Persians’ Mahouts that so many people want changed/ removed? Who btw are a good candidate for removing BBC from out of the og civs.

64

One must use discretion when employing the definite article.

65

No, the HP bonus for Knights → Cavalry is the iconic bonus of the Franks, not the cheaper castles. Their entire playstyle is based around that bonus.

It is barely a bonus, more like free Bloodlines. But the farm bonus and Castle bonus both save more ressources.

66

It was strictly better in Age of Kings when there was no Bloodlines in the game. But now, it’s quite a bit weaker.