Top 10 Heavy Cavalry Archers (in open field combat)

So I’ve been either playing or going against some civs with good Heavy Cavalry Archers, and I wanted to list the ones that I thought were the best. Keep in mind, I haven’t tested all of them, but they’re based on how much they enhance their open combat ability in large battles (stuff like attack, range, armor, attack speed, creation speed, and population space), which is largely subjective, but not totally arbitrary. It will not be based on small hit-and-run raids, as I feel most civs are perfectly capable of doing that just fine, and the unit only really stands out in large battles.

With all that said, let’s jump into the list!

  1. Georgians

The Georgians only have a couple things really going for them: healing from a bonus and reduced population from Aznauri Cavalry. The latter is useful in the late game when population limits are in play, but the individual units are not all that population-efficient due to being totally generic in combat. The healing is slow enough that in pitched battles, it doesn’t make much of a difference, and only matters between fights. You may disagree, but of the major HCA civs, the Georgians are fairly underwhelming, especially since they lack the final armor upgrade and Thumb Ring.

The only factor that really can make a major difference is the bonus causing them to take less damage on a hill. That can be useful, but in pitched battles on level ground, it’s completely useless. Because it’s situational, it doesn’t help that much, so they’re still last.

  1. Vietnamese

The Vietnamese have 20% extra HP on their Archery Range units, which includes HCAs, and Conscription is free as soon as the Imperial Age is reached. Both can be very useful in keeping units alive and replenishing them when they fall. However, they’re only 9th on the list because these advantages are essentially watered down versions of unique techs that civs higher on the list get, so while they’re free, they aren’t very powerful and in general only lead to a modest advantage, especially without Parthian Tactics.

  1. Japanese

These HCAs have one advantage over generic units: they deal +2 damage to archers (except for skirmishers and Genitours). In a battle against other ranged units, this can make a big difference, especially if it’s an HCA war. They can essentially function as mini Skirmishers, except not as tanky, and hold up better against ranged units than one would expect. Overall, though, their advantage over generic HCAs is rather small.

  1. Cumans

The Cuman flavor of HCA is extra speed, which is fairly useless in a straight-up fight, and increased production speed after Steppe Husbandry. Considering they lack Bracer, which means less attack and range, being able to replenish units after they fall is a major deal, since it means that they can get a numbers advantage and fight with a higher number of weaker units. Being able to replace units quickly is important, because in ranged unit fights, numbers matter a lot more than in melee fights.

  1. Mongols

Mongol HCAs fire 25% faster, which is significant, but the issue is that they give up the final armor upgrade to do so. They end up losing to the Huns’ cheaper HCAs, which means that in a mass battle, they simply will not do well. Besides, the Mangudai is better in every way except for its difficulty to mass, so the HCA is a bit of a tough sell. Still, faster firing is nothing to scoff at, and Mongol HCAs have the best DPS of any of them, but they’re squishy and are only really best used as hit-and-run raiders.

  1. Koreans

The Koreans have HCAs that are only 20 wood, which is quite fantastic for savings, especially since the archer armor upgrades are free, meaning that HCAs enter the fight right away with extra armor without paying for it or waiting. However, Parthian Tactics is missing, meaning they do ultimately still miss out on armor, and despite the wood savings, they still cost a rather hefty 60 gold, which make them difficult to mass in the late game when gold is running low.

  1. Huns

The Huns have HCAs that cost the same total resources as the Koreans, except with two differences: they cost less gold, which is helpful in the extreme late game and low gold situations, and they lack the final archer armor upgrade. However, because they have Parthian Tactics while the Koreans don’t, they end up with the same armor values in the long run, but with a cheaper gold cost. It’s difficult to beat Hunnic horse archers when they’re in large numbers.

  1. Tatars

Not only are Tatar HCAs fully upgraded with free Thumb Ring and Parthian Tactics, meaning they go into fights immediately at extra strength, but with a unique tech, Silk Armor, they can gain extra armor on top of that, making them the tankiest of all HCAs when it comes to taking arrows. In addition, they deal extra damage on hills, which can be useful on uneven terrain, but since this list is mostly about open field combat on flat ground, that’s not a big factor. Their main selling points are the free techs and extra armor.

  1. Turks

The Turks get fully upgraded HCAs on top of getting 20 extra HP from Sipahi. This means that they have a monstrous 100 HP, the most of any HCA. While armor is useful against relatively low attack, as exemplified in normal ranged units, extra HP is useful against all types of damage, especially from melee units and gunpowder. I played two games against an Armenian AI, and I lost the first game because I tried too hard to break through with Hussars. The second time, I massed up HCAs and easily won because they were very, very hard to kill. Armor values didn’t matter because of the Composite Bowman, but the extra HP added tankiness without the need for armor. When it comes to sheer hardiness, Turkish HCAs are the best. However, there is one thing that can even trump HP…

  1. Magyars

…and that’s attack. Magyar HCAs may take some work to get to their full strength, since the only bonus they have is extra production speed, but they make up for that with their UT, Recurve Bow, which adds an extra 1 attack and range to them. FU Magyar HCAs end up having 12 attack and 8 range, which is 1 more than any other civilization. Extra range means starting the engagement sooner and extra attack means ending it quicker. The Magyars may not get any free techs or discounts, but they have the best HCAs when it comes to ranged battles, at least in my opinion.

Anyway, that’s my list. I wanted to know your thoughts. Do you agree with it, or are there civs you’d remove, add, or move around?

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Interesting list. Ibwouldnt rate Cumans that high, even though Cumans/persians HCA technically win 1v1 against Huns/Bulgarians HCA. Maybe I am underestimating the production speed bonus.

For the Koreans, did you take into account the lack of Bloodlines ? They deserve to be on the list and are awesome in castle age, but you didnt explicitely mention them missing BL in addition to PT.

Besides these two minor surprising factors, it looks like a solid list.

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I agree with top 3. Not sure about Cumans.

An honorable mention to Saracens that have fully upgraded heavy CA, and they can be pretty resistant with a couple of bimaristan-monks behind them. I know they are not shiny on their own but that combo is good.

No, I forgot to check whether they had Bloodlines or not. I probably would’ve put them lower or not at all if I had remembered. They seem quite a bit worse than Hun HCAs now.

Remember he is talking about HCA. In Castle age Koreans have situational the best CA. In Chaotic games where it is difficult to afford basic upgrades free upgrades and discount beat better tech tree, civs bonuses, and UTs 9/10 times

its a very well elaborated list. However, i see a problem with it: it’s about post-imperial units. the heavy cavalry archer upgrade is insanely expensive, and magyars have to get that and recurve bow to stand a chance against machine-gun mongol cavalry archers. very few matches reach that stage, if any.

[mumbling in DeathMatch language]

The reason Magyar HCAs is so good is why the Cuman HCAs is not good.
Just +1 range and +1 attack is better than other bonuses, so faster training isn’t enough to offset -1 range and -1 attack. Fast training on another aspect means depleting resource stocks quickly, which makes it only affordable if you have a strong enough and leading economy. This makes their HCAs somehow situational.
Perhaps the Cuman Mercenaries should also give HCAs +1 range or +1 attack, so that HCAs with -1 attack or -1 range but faster training could be fully powered.

Koreans have very bad HCAs. The lack of health and armor isn’t worth the reduced cost.
I’ve longed for some level of Korean remake.

Japanese HCAs is underestimated.
If the Persian Knights having +2 attack against archers is considered decent, then the ranged attack version is better. They can better resist foot archers who are supposed to be natural counters, which is actually a big buff especially for a civilization that was not too weak before.

The greatest use of the Mongols’ HCAs is in the mirror game. In theory, having 2 to 3 Archery Ranges to train HCAs is more powerful than having a Castle to train Mangudais.

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i guess that’s what the second town center in feudal is for. i mean it’s supposed to reflect that the cumans had to migrate, but it ties well with what you’ve said

that wouldn’t make sense. mercenaries are precisely what the tech does, while recurve bow is the one that appropiately gives more attack and range. tech names aren’t there for nothing you know.

This does not affect the fact that their HCAs are still situational. When you really manage to develop such a thick economy, Paladins can steadily kill your opponents with probably lower costs.

Dual TCs and mining stone in the Feudal Age → Build a castle in the Castle Age and train Kipchaks to raid and defend → Paladins spawning in the Imperial Age, which is currently one of the mainstream strategies of the Cumans.

We can still say that their HCAs are also some kind of mercenaries who serve their own people. With their skilled combat skills, they can kill enemies from a longer distance.

serving their own people is the opposite of being a mercenary. Mercenaries were hired warriors from other lands.

Germans had hired German mercenaries, such like Landsknecht.
If the Teutons had a UT named “Landsknecht” to strengthen their Champions, I wouldn’t question it.

yes, and Sforza was hired by Italian lords. But just as Italy was comprised of city states with different rulers and even languages, Germany was absolutely fragmented. so it qualifies as “other lands”.

Well, that’s a stretch.

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The vast territory of the Cuman–Kipchak realm consisted of loosely connected tribal units that represented a dominant military force but were never politically united by a strong central power.

still, what i’ve said is viable. dual tc on feudal to gather enough wood and gold; third or even fourth town center in castle right next to gold mines; build 5 archery ranges and the cavalry archers will flow.