Turks are broken for most AOE Players

Hard disagree on the suggestions. In ranked matchmaking you should constrain the players as little as possible. The map is something that obviously applies to both players, so that’s a solid justification for bans (although I’m not a fan of that either). Civ choice should be up to the player who is playing it.
And as soon as you start introducing civ bans, there is the obvious question: Why only one ban?
This gets out of hand quickly…

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That guy was able to get from like 600 to 800 elo or something like that. Wow such an unfair improvement, especially after he was seeking advice from an expert player like Survivalist.

So your statement is that if someone is new he shouldnt be able to win any matches, at any elo?

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A lot of professional tournaments included civ bans, specially during the voobly era. A lot of other ranked and competitive games include similar features. Civ and map bans prevents OTP from spamming one strategy to get easy wins, while also breeds flexibility and motivates the players to learn how to master different game styles and civs. If it works in big competitions, including Age II tournaments, it shouldn’t be such a big deal. There’s a lot of “obvious questions” like how many civ bans are allowed, but there’s also a lot of game designers working on the game so I think they are able to sort that out.

Not really sure how you understood that from my statement.

The issue here is that the main advice from Survivalist was: “Play turks, do this strategy, and you should be fine”. And it worked. If a guy who just started to play the game managed to win several matches using one single strategy, without even understanding some basic strategies and mechanics, that probably means that strategy is kind of broken, and may be unfair to other new players.

Obviously, new players should be able to win matches, that’s why this kind of strategies are broken, because new players won’t be able to respond to them, not because they are bad playes, but because the strategy is very hard to face but VERY easy to master.

some civs better at early ages some civs better at post imp… stone walls were very strong at aoeII but in DE version they are not strong anymore. If you break stone wall or go head to tower rush war, you break the turks economy system for castle age push or fast imp. you can beat them at early games in area, you can try tower rush or 1 tower+archers so, Turks will hurt so much and there is no resources for castle push or fast imp strat. for exp. you can get korea and t rush or try tetutons +10 vils towers or bulgarians man at arms+ towers or get cumans and train more arch+ towers… as you can wish all of those tactics. don’t let go turks to imp or castle age without hurt or you will surely die. In team games about 1300 elo, I tried most of these and It works aganist porto organ guns rush or turks ealry castle age-fast imp push. You can also try it to castle build push strats.

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Thanks, I’ve seen several comments on how to face turks and prevent the fast imp strategy. I think is pretty cool to have advice from other players and I really like how that helps the community to grow.

Anyhow, I still think that turks are at a strange point in terms of balance, specially on closed maps and team games. There are a some civs with reasonable strategies that wil lwork against turks but… how you can’t know if you will be facing turks in the first place. I’m not against blind pick, it works fine on Age, I just say that if you don’t pick a civ with strong options to counter turks, it’s nearly impossible to face them, so you’ll be picking idk Mayans, Koreans, or Teutons just because there’s a chance that you’ll need to play on a specific way to stop the guy who’s playing turks to get easy elo.

Turks are very bad on Arabia. Just get them off gold and they die to anything since they don’t have trash units.

On Arena, you can tell they are going fast Imp by the uptime, if they go naked fast Imp (without forward CD), you can beat them with Castle Age army, such as full Skirms or full Knights. If they go forward Castle into fast Imp it’s a bit more tricky but your eco lead is your biggest advantage, leverage that, be patient and engage before he makes the tech switch into LC/Cavalier.

All in all Turks are not broken, l2p pls.

Yeah, there’s a legitimate issue that has been mentioned even by pro players, I’ve seen Viper on stream talking about how hard are Turks on closed maps. Turks winrate is 59% in arena, that’s kind of broken. So it’s not a “l2p pls” issue here. No need to be like that about it, not very constructive.

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I think you are confusing one thing, Viper is a 2600 elo player and top4 in the world, you are likely something like 1200, playing vs Turks piloted by 1200 elo players, with the attached bad micro, idle TC and inability to adapt when things don’t go their way. In your OP you don’t even distinguish open from closed maps, and it’s fairly unanimously agreed that Turks are below average on maps like Arabia, although not unplayable. This is the opinion of both advanced players (1700-2000 bracket) and pros.

Civ picking is not what is preventing you from winning, until like 2300 in general you shouldn’t complain about civs and it’s the wrong mindset to approach the problem with. So definitely L2P issue, finding a video saying that civ X is broken on youtube is a bit like googling symptoms when you feel sick. You can find anything and everything on the internet but the good mindset is approach losses with humility, I don’t think many would look favorably upon someone who complains about civs in 1200 elo, it just looks silly.

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same tier as other playable arabia civs.
and add another thing, why you always go for arabia perfomance, that mindset is waht made Portuguese OP on closed maps, civs can’t be allowed to OP on one map right.
Go and check Morg.

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I’ll keep the discussion civil, even if you keep trying to do the opposite by making thos about me being a bad payer.

My OP stated that Turks are over powered specially on closed maps and team games. You keep saying that they are not broken but they have something like 55% winrate on Arena (one of the most common maps on Ranked games) and 58% on Fortress. That’s the exact definition of unbalanced. Bohemians were nerfed some months ago for this exact same issue, their winrate in Arena was extremely high, so they took out the monastery wood cost bonus, even though they performed just nice in other maps.

I know pro players don’t experience the game in the same way that noobs, rookies and advanced players. I’ve just seen that no matter the elo, all players have VERY though time facing turks. Me, with all my mistakes, and pro players, with no idle TC or bad micro. So if the only think that makes a player stronger than the other one is picking one specific civ in a map, that’s also a definition of unbalanced.

I lose a lot of matches, that’s no problem, most of the time I just face someone who plays better, other times a make dumb mistakes or just make a bad call in a key moment. With turks that’s different, because the other player just needs to do the exact same thing match after match, and the game shouldn’t be about that.

⁵If I knew that Turks is going FI I would win 100% of the time in an elo that is up to +300 compared to my equilibrium elo.

The strat is not “ridiculously overpowered” like you say in your OP.

Also don’t hide the hand now after throwing the rock by saying I’m not civil when you first came here and likely with <30 games under your belt post things like “Viper said” and “the civ has this winrate” which are annoying to read because you think you are the first to have discovered some inflated winrates for some civs.

If I had <30 games I would be trying to learn the game not lecture people with 100x your amount of games about what’s broken and what isn’t.

Yes Turks are a bit too strong on Arena but when a new player says that he loses games cuz of a “broken strat” it just looks silly.

FI Turks into any unit you posted (Janny, ### etc.) is easy to deny, in general 1-unit spams work until 1300-1400 where people learn how to adapt and scout. So devote more time to that, and less to reading stats and you will beat Turks, 59% winrate of Turks in 2k+ elo doesn’t mean they are broken in low elo. And even if Turks had 59% in low elo, there is a 41% of time they lose, so the strat isn’t “overpowered” or aything cuz apparently people of your elo can sometimes beat it.

Also what you call “fast Imp” is probably some 30 min Imp uptime wirh Castle, but even if they do the classic 40 pop FI into HC + BBC, ultimately the game is also about build orders, the way I see it if opponent came with a 40 pop FI and you didn’t he is better than you because BOs are part of the game. But really

a) FI without a castle is quite a bad strat (and with a castle you can probably no longer call it FI but call it 1 TC play) because it dies to both full Skirm or full Knights, your choices
b) if Turks are bothering you that much ban Arena and the problem is solved, if you are a new player you shouldn’t be playing Arena anyway as it’s a map with a few gimmicks and strats there are more specific, as a new player you should focus on having a clean Dark age but especially on learning Feudal and Arabia is the best map for learning Feudal.

And on Arabia, fast Imp is just not a thing, I have 4k+ games and even when I was a noob I have never seen FI on Arabia in any elo. Hell in 900-1000 elo many people go FC on Arabia without walls which autodies to the first build order you should learn (straight Archers).

So I reiterate, l2p issue in my view, if you think I’m rude and take my post personally it’s because you are one of those people who refuse to accept what others are saying about you focusing on improving, seeing a 1200 player (if not 900 at this point) complain about broken strats is really funny, because the game is played at 20% in that elo. It’s annoying to see people in 900 elo try to lecture more experienced players about the game with the argument “yes but 59% winrate”. Please reach at least 1700 and I can accept the civ win argument more.

Seeing it in 900 elo is just sad and annoying to read.

Thıs forum is a clown world 11. People giving advice and calling turks are not op in closed maps while pro players get beaten in closed map. 11

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Janissary dies to Elite Skirms, pick up +2 attack, Ballistics and if you want 1 armor.

You should be spamming from roughly 2 ranges for each of his Castles (I assume he has only 1 since we talk about fast Imp), don’t fight under his Castle if he retreats, your goal is to outboom him, because he is 1 TC and you are probably 3+.

At 8 range, Janissaries have bad accuracy, it’s far from this “unbeatable unit”, and at 6-7 range you can already fire back with your Skirms.

As for BBC again they die to Skirms or to Knights as long as you engage when he is out of position (not under a Castle), it’s useful to understand what’s a good trade and what isn’t, BBCs are 450 res a piece, if you lose 5 Skirms (300 res) and kill 1 BBC, it’s worth it especially if you have more TCs than him.

There are a few units you can call broken in this game like Conquistadors or Mangudais in Imp but Janissaries while not the weakest unit don’t look unbeatable to me. You are probably keeping your Archery Ranges idle too much or spamming from too few Archery Ranges.

if you refer to me I didn’t write that Turks aren’t broken, I said Turks aren’t broken in low elo and it’s the wrong mindset to call stuff broken in low elo.

And none of us here are pro players so it’s irrelevant to see what the meta is in pro games and conclude that that’s the meta in lower elos also, I doubt anyone here can micro Bombard Cannons + Janny at 2.3k level while also keeping TC running and transitioning into Cavalier.

But rly Turks broken on Arena, Aztecs+Mayans broken on Arabia, Byzantines broken on Golden Swamp/Gold Rush, Vikings broken on Islands… it’s almost like this game has a meta civ for every different map! :slight_smile: and people sometimes beat even those meta civs, then again most people go random civ on most maps, and if lower elos civ pick it’s probably a good thing, learning 2-3 strats at a time is what you should be doing anyway in low elo.

At this point, it makes no sense to keep discussing this with you. You’re just making it personal, so your comments are not related to the thing I wanted to discuss in the forum. You accepted that turks are very strong on closed maps, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Also, not sure where you looked that up, but I have a lot more games on team Match, and way more not ranked games, probably 600 or so. But once again, this is not about me, idk why you insist.

Nothing uncivil about that. If it’s annoying for you to read my opinion, that’s on you, but there’s nothing uncivil on saying something about once civ/strategy. I’m not saying anything about anyone in particular like you, I’m not trying to lecture anyone, I’ve been playing this game for years, I learned a lot about Game design and development in college, I’m just sharing my opinion on what I think is an unbalanced civ and I’m happy to see there are some people who agree with me (including you).

I’m just saying, the developers of the game could give some thought to this issue and come up with a solution like they already did in the past with the bohemians, That’s all.

You could have just done this, it would have Made more sense and constructive than making it about me. Anyhow, feel free to keep calling me whatever you want, I’ll no further engage with you, if having the last word makes you feel like you’re right, go ahead, idrk.

I’ll be willing to get more advice from other civil and constructive players, and to read what are their takes on this particular issue.

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Please, reduce the tone of the discussion, I will follow it closely.
Thank you, please continue.

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Around this forums about 2 years ago some dudes told me t hat hussar+skirm beats goths husk+halb spam, somethings never changes.

Turks are beyond broken on walled maps, they have always been but they got even more powerful when hussar got +1 PA and artillery cost changed to wood instead of stone, like what the devs watch when balancing the game? arabia 900 elo games?

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