janissaries r useless. it needs to get improved.
i mean, indians get +1 range on hand cannoneers which basically means that their HC r better than turks unique unit.
Janissaries are not supposed to be stronger than HCs, they are supposed to just be earlier HCs.
Janissaries have that +1 range built-in. And Indian can pay for +1 range but not for the 22 attack or the additonal HP, nor the reduced frame delay.
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ok makes sense. thats why turks sucks.
Well, they actually are stronger too, with more attack, HP and frame delay. And having a bad UU isnât enough to make a civ bad anyway (else Teutons/indian would be trash tier)
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No, Turks suck only when they run out of Gold. Before that, they not only have the Scout line upgrades for free (great for Scout Rush), but also the best Cavalry Archers in the game, and the longest ranged Bombard Cannons.
Turks are ok, Janissaries need no buffs. Specially when you get Chemistry for free (huge buff for Archers and Defenses), which effectively allows you to transition into Hand Cannoneers faster than any other civ, and without any tech investment.
Turks start their Castle Age with a small advantage, and their Imperial Age with a big advantage.
Just make sure to get Gold, which Turks also mine faster than other civs.
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I have to repeat, because itâs happening again. Anyone writing off the Janissary as a bad unit is just spouting pure nonsense. We do not need people bloating the thread with complaints about units that are actually ridiculously good. The only necessary hurdle that the Janissary has to keep it in check is itâs massive upfront cost of a castle to acquire and the bottleneck of the castle creating limited production speed. If they were built out of an Archery range in Castle age, every single one of these posters saying how bad they are would be crying to the devs to nerf them immediately.
Speaking of which, if you want to instantly ruin the Turks and make them top tier in a day, give them that ability as a unique tech. Iâd love to see that, to be honest, just to get people like this to stop badmouthing a top 3 unique unit.
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Jans are not a bad unit, and actually one of the strongest in Castle Age, they only get overshadowed by HCs in Imperial Age, specially because Turks do not even have to research Chemistry to get them, and the Elite Janissary upgrade is expensive for what you get.
This, however, does not mean that Jans should get a buff. They are fine as is.
This is nonsense. I admire you giving them âstrong in castle ageâ as a qualifier, at least, but the Hand cannon never gets 8 range. An extra range on the Janissary is a massive deal. I will take the extra range over the bonus damage against infantry literally every time because the amount of damage they do, coupled with the range, makes them an overwhelmingly strong counter against Infantry already. An extra range (and more damage with the Elite tech) makes them better against everything the Hand cannon isnât great against. Equal range with Imperial archers and skirms. Outranges castle age archers. Outranges castle age siege. Outranges Imperial age Cavalry Archers (which is a massive deal given the wind-up on CA, you can sometimes kill them before they get the shot off). More range against Cavalry, meaning more units engage faster, from a longer distance, killing more before they engage.
The Janissary, is flatly, a better unit than the Hand cannon, even in imperial once the hurdles are cleared. Your alternative, the Shatagni Hand cannons, are a one-civ alternative that trades 5 damage to everything, for 10 damage against Infantry. Take your pick. Iâd still rather have 15 more HP, a frame delay of 0, and the higher flat damage. How about you?
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1 on 1 Jans beat HCs and deal better with Cavalry. Against Champions or Eagle warriors, Jand are quite a bit worse than HCs.
From a population efficiency standpoint, Elite Jans would be the best choice, but games rarely allow you to be so efficient with a unit that costs so much to upgrade. From a resource efficiency standpoint, HCs beat Jans hands down.
You also have to account that it is significantly easier to spam HCs at the start of Imp age, than it is to upgrade your Castle Age Jans to Elite.
HCs will see a lot more usage in 1v1 Turks, because they are just more accessible, and less cost-prohibitive.
With Turks, spamming HC is easier, I agree. If you are turks and youâve lost your castle age janissaries (or didnât make them) thatâs totally a reasonable thing to do even counting the Janissary creation speed since itâs still bottlenecked by how many castles you have.
I do have to harp on this though, this is purely a âyou can do this as turksâ option. A normal civ will not have a good time trying to transition into HC in Imperial because any other civ lacks Chemistry. You shouldnât be comparing the Turk HC to the Turk Janissary, the Turk HC is vastly better than the standard option in early imperial, mainly because it can exist in early imperial and the alternatives simply canât. On top of that, itâs built faster, and it has more HP when it spawns, which are two big benefits to the unit right out of the gate.
The turks have both of these options and that is not a bad thing. But to use it as a justification for berating the Janissary is misguided because only the turks have these options together. Comparing the Janissary to any other hand cannon, period, and comparing it to the Turk hand cannon creates a completely different comparison which is blatantly undercutting the massive weaknesses of the early imperial hand cannon.
Compared to a non-turk Hand cannon, the Janissary is just flatly better and itâs important to make that distinction genuine and clear because it is important to grasp just how good the Janissary is when compared to hand cannons on the whole, not necessarily to their own options.
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But that is the whole point of the argument, and the reason why people say Jans are not good!
But you arenât using the Janissary against your own Hand cannons, and you arenât making your own hand cannons in Castle age. The Janissary is still clearly, cleanly, better stat-wise than the Turk Hand cannon, itâs just a matter of production. And the Janissary isnât just better than âsome hand cannonâ when I say itâs better than the Turk Hand cannon. Itâs better than what is clearly the best hand cannon in the game until post-imperial Indian cannons hit the field. And then, itâs arguably better than that.
The Janissary doesnât stop being a great unit. Even in the lopsided, ridiculous comparison of vs self. If you have the option to make Janissary continuously and you decide not to, youâve made a mistake as Turks. Creation is the only bottleneck, and itâs a necessary one.
Turk HC is not the best HC in the game. Italians get them 20% cheaper, which is huge (5 HCs per everyone elseâs 4), and Ports have great accuracy.
Turks HCs are just immediately available, which is what makes them good. You can pump out a batch of them as soon as you hit Imp.
Massing ability is not what sets Jans back the most, but the cost of the Elite upgrade, which costs as much a quite a few HCs.
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Immediately available makes them the best in the game. If you need them and you canât have them because you need to wait 2.5 minutes for Chemistry, it doesnât matter what bonuses you have for them. Donât forget the Turks also get them made faster.
Viper playing Turks vs Tatars, dominating with Janissarise + Mangonel is Castle Age, sayig that both Jans and mamelukes are great unit:
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If youâre Turks and youâre playing vs an archer civ you should not go only with Janissaries and expect everything to work fine or complain about not getting Elite Skirmishes. You go for Hussars and Cav Archers. Their Cav archers have a whopping 100hp and are fully upgradeable. If the enemy makes halbs get some HC or Janissaries in the mix to counter them. Some micro on the CavArchers would help a lot too.
Also, people are complaining that Turks are a bad gunpowder civ. Turks get the following:
- +25% hp on Gunpowder units
- +25% creation speed
- Chemistry is free
- Gunpowder techs are 50% cheaper
Thatâs a lot of bonuses!
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The Mughals hired Turkish gunners.
I guess they donât because with their mobility they would be able to abuse the hill advantage. That or Timurid siegecraft is deemed good enough to replace them.
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Ways to buff Turks in my humble opinion:
- Sipahi should apply to Hussars (115hp) in imp.
- Turks should get Genitours to get an skirm equivalent to cover their huge archer weakness.
This buffs would further increase the identity of turks which is a cavalry / gunpowder civilization.
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