Did some quick tests of Turks’ HCs against Hindustanis’ HCs at 7 range
Turks
42 hits
36
42
35
35
average 38
Hindustanis
40
37
36
37
33
average 36,6
second run
Turks
39
39
40
41
41
average 40
Hindustanis
37
42
38
41
41
average 39,8
=
In conclusion, if more max range really has a positive effect on accuracy even the effect of +2 range is so minimal it cannot be measured even if 5 HCs fire ~50 times.
Could someone checks from the genie editor what’s the attack dispersion of gunpowder units other than Hand Cannoneers?
Does it matter what the dispersion is? Why are you this borderline rulebreak spammy on this hyper fixated matchup? This doesnt reflect well on your status in thr community and I say this to be helpful
Janissaries are a good castle age unit. An excellent unit for closed maps, some Nomadic maps and team games. Bohemians don’t get CA, knights lack bloodlines. They just fulfill that gap. 40 of the remaining 43 civs can make gunpowder only in imperial age after researching chemistry.
No, again because hand canoneer are produced 2 mins after imperial age. Other civs can have ranged units with bracer which outrange hand canoneers or cavalry units with +4 and a large economy. Janissaries on the other hand are produced when both players have less than 50 vills and the unit is extremely solid without the need for any extra upgrades. So the balance already exists.
If your buffs are just for Elite Janissaries that’s fine and the results from the tests you run will give some idea.
Another issue is that Elite Janissaries were never supposed to be countered by hand cannoneers. Now, Hindustani and Italian hand cannoneers easily counter Elite Janissaries. And they pay less for the Elite Janissary upgrade.
They should have either not buffed the hand cannoneers or buffed them along with the Janissaries.
Were was that stated?
Well thats certainly odd. Can I bother you to test Hindustani HCs at max range?
With the old shatagni the HC’s DID have a reduced accuracy at max range. If the same rules are being used, the at the full 9 range, the accuracy should drop to something like 68%. Else the devs did something weird again.
As an alternative why not give them a more unique role that ‘above average HC’? Consider:
Janissary:
Hp: 40, 45 (before civ bonus)
Attack: 17, 22 (+2, +3 vs Ram)
RoF: 3.45
Attack delay: 0.4, 0
Range: 7,8
Accuracy: 60%, 70%
Melee armor: 3, 5
Pierce armor: 0, 0
Speed: 0.9
Just turn in into a frontliner.
The growing problem with the civ is that in any case hussars aren’t good enough to hold protect the back line from enemy ranged units, then its a major problem - the next option is the champion so you’re burning gold in two ends.
The goal here is to reduce the need for a frontline on the UU, so it can fill cover cases where the wall of horsemeat fails. The unit keeps its weakness to archers between the low p. armor and reduced speed, but gain an increased ability to stand up to melee units between the hp, melee armor and damage output. If even Else, they can be a very threatening frontline for scorpions/bombards against particularly strong archer/siege civs.
Inspired by how the janissary worked irl - fire some volleys with guns, then finish it off in melee. The western tercio formation was a bad match for the local method of warfare.
To my knowledge, neither (Elite) Janissaries nor regular Hand Cannons have the Infantry armor class, so they don’t counter each other.
Redid the test at 7 range for HCs of both Civs
Turks
36
40
36
33
36
total 181
average 36.2
Hindustanis
36
37
42
41
38
total 194
average 38.8
second run
Turks
37
38
41
36
42
total 194
average 38.8
Hindustanis
39
42
41
41
42
total 205
average 41
third run
Turks
31
33
32
42
37
total 175
average 35
Hindustanis
36
39
38
40
34
total 187
average 37.4
=
At 9 range for Hindustanis
Turks
37
39
34
36
36
total 182
average 36.4
Hindustanis
33
38
42
38
37
total 188
average 37.6
second run
Turks
33
37
34
42
38
total 184
average 36.8
Hindustanis
39
33
36
33
38
total 179
average 35.8
=
At 9 range vs 7 range it was 1 win for both
At 7 range both it was two wins for Hindustanis; tried it again, another win for Hindustanis; so in total we are at 1 win for Turks, 1 draw, and 3 wins for Hindustanis
Elite Janissaries even counter the Spanish Hand Cannoneers. And this video is after the Hand Cannoneer buff.
Also notice how Elite Janissaries performed almost the same against Spanish and Turkish Hand Cannoneers, because both are well balanced.
The Italian Hand Cannoneers were already cost-effectively countering Elite Janissaries before the patch. They were still balanced because Elite Janissaries were more population-efficient. But now, Italian Hand Cannoneers hard counter Elite Janissaries on top of being cheaper to tech into, countering infantry better, and performing better against tight groups.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Italian Hand Cannoneers perform better than Elite Janissaries even against archers, skirmishers, and cavalry, thanks to their 90% accuracy.
I’d still be fine with Castle Age Janissaries having 60% accuracy, the same attack dispersion as Hand Cannoneers but without the HP buff. In Imperial, they should end up with 75% accuracy and 55 HP. But if the Italian and Hindustani Hand Cannoneers are tuned down, then Elite Janissaries can end up with 70% accuracy and 55 HP, with a slightly reduced Elite upgrade cost.
In a prolonged ranged battle, I wouldn’t use Elite Janissaries just standing in the back alone and waiting for their next volley. Mass archers/skirmishers can still pick them off even with a meatshield. Instead, it’s better to use them along with Cavalry Archers or Crossbows. Janissaries will be hitting, running back, and hitting again to negate archers’ advantage of quicker reload time over Janissaries. Because they deal high upfront damage, they are better against skirmishers than archers.
Also, buffing the Castle Age Janissaries’ HP or melee armor could make the meme strategy in the video highly popular.
Its not as hopeless as you pretend. If Gujaras are such a problem you can make a meat shield of siege rams, or even cavalier or champions to absorb or force melee to take extra damage?
As I said, go practice
I think he means the situation of the jans stat distribution of +5 base damage and no bonus damage vs infantry.
It lets them reliably beat HC’s head on despite at the cost of less dps vs infantry.
The AoK had this status quo that conqs were number one, jans were number 2, and then the other handcannons.
There isn’t any explicit rule that says this has to be the case.
If you compare Spanish, Turkish, Portugese, Burgundian and pre-patch Italian hand cannoneers, they are all well balanced with each other despite all getting different bonuses. And they are still counterable by mass archers/skirmishers.
And if you throw Hindustani hand cannoneers against them, the Hindustani hand cannoneer not only demolish them with a large margin, you can also never reliably counter these hand cannoneers. Because accuracy provide linear benefit while range provide an invaluabl exponential benefit. And combine with it their stealty accuracy bonus plus 1/1 armor bonus and hindustani villager/gold/market bonuses, shatagni hand cannoneer end up with almost uncounterable.
They also down the other hand cannonner bonuses into irrelevance.
Hmm, given that the numbers of wins seems to tilt towards Hindustanis as the range closes, it looks like it IS the case that Hindustanis are more accurate at 7 range.
An accuracy of 75% at 9 tiles means you lose 25% accuracy at the end. 25 / 9 = 2.77. So you would gain back 2.77 accuracy per tile as the target gets closer. T
he Hindustani HC’s would effectively have 80.5% accuracy at the common 7 tile range - makes sense that there wouldn’t be a visible difference.
The armor and hp bonuses work out such that each kills the other in 4 hits so that explains how that works out.
That’s not how accuracy works.
75% accuracy means that in 75% of all attacks the unit shoots the projectile exactly where the target is standing.
In the renaming 25% the unit shoots the unit shots the projectile randomly forward inside an arc; the width of the arc is determined by the unit’s dispersion value. In that case it can still happen that the randomly chosen dispersion is next to 0, thus the projectile still hits.
That is why every unit’s “real” accuracy, even at max range, is higher than the stated accuracy. E.g. Fire Ships have an accuracy of 0%, but also a dispersion of 0, meaning their effective accuracy is 100% in most cases.
The question is, does a unit’s dispersion determines the width of the arch at the end of the cone, or the value of the angle at the tip of the cone?
How on earth is this topic still going…?!
It’s a troll who seeks attention, that’s how.
Huh. Does it not take a boolean to decide whether the projectile flies to the intended target or takes another path in the dispersion zone?
We can find it out more clearly by increasing the range of Shatagni Hand Cannoneers even further something like 12–14 for testing. Then, we can compare their accuracy performance at range 7 with a generic Hand Cannoneer. After that, we can question why the Hand Cannoneer’s dispersion value is 0.5, while other gunpowder units apparently have a dispersion value of 0.75.
I also have a few more questions:
It’s an interesting topic worth exploring. Maybe Spirit of the Law would be interested.