Can we please talk about something other than your anti Gujara shtick
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14 - thats how many GCâs it takes to one shot knights in age 3 with even upgrades. Thereâs your critical mass.
It takes 40 regular xbow to do the same - which is also a thing people do. You expect me to believe that this small handful of units is too much?? For a civ that likes to tech into archers in the first place, at that?
I wish you would work as hard to consider arguments as you do putting words in my mouth. Everyone knows jans beat condos (in mass) - thing is, jans lose to GCâs in even res like the video you ignored.
Then, Jans ALSO lose to italian HCâs solely due to the cost diff like the video you ignored.
Both cases already offer you the bais of not having skirms to support you main gold comp.
Skirms infront, GCâs in the back â huss die, jans die and BBCâs do nothing alone.
In open maps italians mass up spear+archers/skirms age 2 to defend against turk archer/CA/Jans. Turks build up archers faster due to the gold bonus and try to end in age 3 with the free light cav+xbow timing push into knights.
If this doesnt work, GCâs are added to counter cavalry - being archers theyâre already strong vs gunpowder and basic turk infantry. Eskirm upgrade is added. the whole comp cost effectively hard ot soft counters any composition of turk huss/CA/jans/HC/camels/inf.
Turks dont have Eskirms, onagers, or arbalests to contend with this unit - jans LOSE in even res. CA lose for obvious reasons. Huss are an ineffective meatshield. Only other options is champions/scorpions, but what? Are turk champions a good fronline vs italian comps now?
rolls eyes
Dont need to tell me. Youâre the one that posted outdated win rates to build an argument on.
This is a very unrealistic expectation - it supposes that italias completely ignore the key weaknesses of their opponent and goes for a generic composition that plays straight into the strengths of turk huss/gunpowder.
A proper counter comp would build archers/skrims in age 2, with spears as needed. Then in age 3 would try to add GCâs. The final comp would be GCâs with an Eskirm fronline - should overpower anything turks can send out.
Recall the turk roster; no eskirm, no arbalest, no onager, huss/ca/camels/knights die to GCs, jans lose to GCâs to in even res and skrims make that worse, same case with HCs.
+2 range on bombards is excelient for countering siege, but none is needed to break turk comps. On the other end the only viable coutner is generic scorpions, but the fronline options are huss or spearmen - fodder for archers.
With micro, I think that could easily get flipped. Elite janissaries are supposed to be especially easy to micro (due to 0 attack delay), and they have a range advantage (which they can exploit). And Turks can also use BBCs to snipe a few units from range (Italians can also do the same, but Turks will be better at it due to longer range keeping the BBCs safer).
One of the strengths of Italians is that they are very flexible. They donât have to go spear+archer/skirms in age 2. They can just as easily go for a scout rush (and until the most recent update, both options were equally generic - now the archers get a little extra armor, which should help them mainly against other ranged units, but do little against melee units). In castle age, they can still go for basically any unit (a few bonuses for their archers, but everything they have still scales into late game acceptably well). And in imperial age, their best comp may be hussar/bbc/(ranged gold unit), but they still donât have to go for that. They can justifiably go cavalier + skirms (with the only tech missing being Paladin, which is often too expensive for 1v1) or for condos + skirms. If you go a blind counter-strategy against Italians, you risk getting caught off-guard by a different comp (which is a good way to lose). This is a strategy game: itâs important to keep an eye on what your opponents are doing and to react accordingly. And the Italians player needs to do likewise (otherwise, they could get caught off-guard by say, a castle-age monk-siege push)
FU hussars mixed with BBCs and a (strong) backline gold unit is a very strong late-game composition. Turks and Italians both have this: Italians with cheaper bombards, generic FU hussars, and 3 strong options for a backline gold unit (Gen-bows, Arbs, and hand cannons). Turks have longer-range bombards, better-than generic hussars (with free upgrades to help them get there), and strong backline options in their heavy CA (again, better than generic), janissaries, and hand cannons.
Would +2 PA on Turk scouts be fine? Probably, but I donât think itâs a needed change. The Turks already have a top-tier scout line (that are both superb raiders and a fantastic meat shield), and multiple strong backline options. But Turks are also well-known to be a strong Arena civ, but a weak Arabia civ. And I think thatâs fine. Turk weakness tends to be the early game, but Turks are often used with fast-castle and fast-imp strategies.
Janissaries were never supposed to be countered by any Hand Cannoneers. It was never part of the deal. Just like how it was never part of the deal to make Turks the weakest against elephants.
But now, the Italians have three stacked combat bonuses for their Hand Cannoneers, which is the same issue with Hindustani Hand Cannoneers, who have 3+1 stacked bonuses. And considering the lack of options against Genoese Xbows, I see no reason not to ban the Italians in my games.
You want to start talking about micro for a test of objective cost effectiveness that I brought up check the argument that jans beat GCs head to head? I mean, one unit has accuracy modified by thumbing and ballistics while the other is a meme for missed shots - but hye, Iâll watch a video of you mircoing jans vs GCâs over that 1 range. Unless this was just an empty statement and you want me to just take your word for it?
Thats alot of generic obvious statements, that indeed, are obvious.
Read it again carefuly;
Well and fine you use the bing words of flexibility and strategy, but tell me - whats the strategy of italian NOT exploiting the the lack of flexibility turks have? The latter only has cavalry and gunpowder, italians have a unit that can counter both alone and can be supplemented with trash units.
By all means, tell me what youâll use to vs counter a comp centered around GCâs as turks? Basic skrims? Mangonels with no onager? Janissaries/gunpowder?
Everyone in this thread is in agreement that buffing Turk scouts is a bad idea. The point of contention is that some say turks need nothing, anywhere and others say that they have a key weaknesses exaggerated by powercreep that need to be addressed.
Personally, I think that every problem they have is solved by access to pikemen.
The issue is that the new civilizations are not as well-balanced as the older ones.
Byzantines, for example, are a counter civilization with an open tech tree, cheap trash units, and a superb anti-infantry unique unit. It sounds overpowered at first glance, but theyâre also held back by a lack of strong eco bonuses, no stacked unit bonuses, and an expensive unique unit to tech into.
Hindustanis are another âcounterâ civilization with lots of options, but unlike the Byzantines, Hindustani counters are much more versatile, population-efficient, and dangerous. Ghulams shut down all archers, Camels shut down all mounted units, and Shatagni Hand Cannoneers counter basically everything thanks to four stacked bonuses. And unlike the Byzantines, their compositions are backed by strong food and gold bonuses.
I donât think you know why strong cavalry civs are unfavorable matchups for Italians then. It is like why you believe elephant+ xbow is meta in open maps Castle age.
In late game, pop efficiency> cost efficiency. Again, with micro, the result will be flipped even in equal resource. And these videos can only be reference for melee vs melee. I even saw Cavalry archers get beaten by kamayuk in this channel.
Please note the difference in attack delay between HC and Jani. Jani will be faster to react to command and HC will be sluggish to micro. Walking 1 tile away while attacking with 1 more range and HC needs to readjust position before attack.
Do you ever tried BBC shot on xbow mass when they micro and have dense formation? And good luck to your skirm+GC aginast Turk endgame composition.
It is more often for Turks to go for scout rush. And then either Knight+camels/rams+jani depending on opponent.
Because you donât micro your Jani.
Look, now youâre just doing ur usual thing of griping about any random thing just to have an argument.
I think Iâve explained how tempo works out something like five times total to you and here you are cherry picking things to whine about.
Unless you bother yourself to engage with every point I made to you, Iâm not gonna bother myself with take you seriously.
You wanna spam BBCs into blobs of archers? Cool. Lets hope you one day figure out jan/rams too by yourself, since you seem immune external analysis.
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Your strategies are unusual. Whenever I asked you about the detail of your flow/build, you always avoid to explain. Like how many villagers you have upon reaching Castle age such that you can go for elephants+xbow in open maps Castle age.
No need to spam BBC. Just 4-5 will be threatening enough.
Turks are a civ that like fast castle and fast-imp strategies. I see no reason why theyâd want to vary from that against Italians (especially on closed maps - on more open maps then may need some kind of rush to buy themselves time). Once the Turk player gets to castle age, they can then put on heavy pressure on the Italians player. The longer the game goes on in castle age, the more Turks can take advantage of their gold mining bonus. Meanwhile, the Italians eco bonus helps with aging up, but doesnât provide any benefit to sustained castle age fighting (and going to imp is still expensive even with the discount).
If the Italian player defends well and gets a castle up, mangonels will still deal with gen-bows while the Turk player is in castle age, and the Turk player can either fight around the castle (it can only guard so much area) or go up to imp. If the game gets to imp, then the Turks can stop mangonel production and immediately start BBC production (which can both snipe a few Gen-bows from afar and threaten to tear down enemy castles). Mangonels can still get sufficient value in castle age (or even in early imp), and onager is an expensive tech anyways.
If the Italian player doesnât defend well, then theyâve lost. Even if they get a castle up, the economic damage would limit their ability to defend (and gen bows are neither cheap nor a power unit nor great at counter-raids - they cannot make up for a significant economic disadvantage).
Unit comp is only one aspect of strategy. And missing techs for siege units only matter if the game gets to imp (and most games donât get to imp).
Last patch, Turks had a clear edge in win rate against Italians. I think it will be a fair bit more even now, but the strategy should remain the same.
So leverage the turk gold bonus into a faster takoff into their basic strats faster and close early - Iâve already addressed that multiple times in this thread.
I AM aware that turks are GENERALLY very powerful due to their smooth transition into CA/huss - which is a very powerful comp as a whole. While turks dont have the strongest variant of this comp, they still have artillery to protect this comp from onagers. Yes, its known. A lesser, but still powerful comp is huss/jan/bbc.
In most matchups, you can rely on your huss to tank ranged unit and let your backline do its work. Between sipahi and micro, age 3 CA is enough to overpower soft counters and hardcounters like eskirms are killed by huss. Of course micro can change things - but thats skill. The comps themselves are evenly matched.
This breaks down in certain cases - some are when the dps from the backline is just not enough or when the fronline fails. In the case of italians, GCâs with a screen of skirms breaks this down by tearing down the frontline cavalry while ALSO being able to threaten the backline.
The end is obvious for CA, but even jans lose - most handcannon units are designed to lose vs archers in this game. The cost of GCâs and the range makes it close, but thats what the eskirms are there as support.
Sure all this is vulnerable to mangonels - but that too is a skill matcup. Holding a comp at bay doesnt change that all the tools have to actually attack are still countered. A matter of whether you land a good hit, or if the mangs just get sniped. The lack of onager is especially critical here since GCâs can actually tank mangonels better than regular arbs.
Bombards cannons are NOT Houfnice. Sniping a few units is just that - a few units. This suggestion just feels like you took a look at a wiki page of what the turks have any bonus for and just threw out the loosest sort of âwhat ifâ counter you saw.
Iâll need a top level player validating BBC vs archer ball, its completely empty otherwise.
Hera said bombard is good vs xbow-line.
Aside from the other discussions in this thread, this is the only one that all players under 1700 Elo will find difficult to implement in their matches. When you start having several BBCs, you counter anything slow practically.
Whatâs the point of these videos? You do not a-move your armies into each other. Especially not units that you usually protect with a meat shield or a Castle.
Going Genoese Crossbowman in Castle Age is usually a losing move. Unless you reach a critical mass they can be picked off by Scouts and Knights. Even if they reach a critical mass they are very susceptible to XBowmen, ESkirmishers and siege as they have -1 range. And you canât pressure your opponent with them, so they can simply out-boom you. As Italians you are almost always better off with XBows.
The best bet is to try ending the game in the Castle Age or early Imperial. Otherwise, itâs a doomed matchup.
I would still use Skirmishers in the Castle Age along with Mangonels or Scorpions against Genoese Crossbows. But the moment the Italians get 10â15 Genoese Crossbows in Imperial, the Turks are done due to the lack of Elite Skirmishers and Onagers.
Genoese Crossbow + Condottiero counters all Turk options. You canât go with Crossbows either because they have fully upgraded Elite Skirmishers. Plus, they have fully upgraded Hussars. You canât go with infantry either because they have the second-best Hand Cannoneers.
Viper used janissaries micro to defeat Condottiero and BBC to shoot GC.
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The videos were just an isolated snapshot of what each unit in question offers for its cost against the other. At some point, someone said that jans beat GC head to head, which seemed odd since jans lose to arb/equivalents.
In the general case, GCâs are totally worse than regular xbow but thats mainly due to two things - in the general case, there is an easy counter in eskirms or siege. In this case, turks dont have eskirms and the only practical meatshield they have is the hussar - usually enough but not good here for obvious reasons.
It ends up being the awkward case that your best counter is seige without
Viper used monks and camels to counter the age 3 knight rush. After min 20 there was 3k point diff and increasing. This game was already over.
Viper used hussars to beat the condos via brute forcing his lead.
The GCs walked through 3 direct bombard hits 25:15. Full on attack grounds, no counter micro - lost 6 units. Then matador decided to micro is xbows and the bombards were useless vs them.
If anything this reinforces point AGAINST bombards - shots like that from an onager and the whole cluster is gone.
20:00 is still Castle age⊠And still within 1000 difference.
Janissaries did get attack from Condo but Viper managed to shoot them down.
If this logic standed, skirm and scorpions were actually not a counter to xbow.
Hmm, yes, I made a typo, it was indeed a ⊠1k point diff after the failed knight push. 3k happened 5 min after, and at the end it was around 4k. Not that it changes anything.
Congrats tho on being right for the very first time in all our exchanges.
NO ONE said condos are good into jans. Thats YOUR wild assumption your dragging along. The counter comp is eskirms/GC for exactly this reason.
So you wanna say skirms and scorps arenât counters to xbow, just cus bombards are suck vs them? Or that bombards are as good as skrims/scorps against xbow? BS either way.
You badly need the Sipahi cavalry archers to counter enemy archers. Massing scouts in the Feudal Age is pointless because food is a bottleneck resource, and as Turks, you should prioritize reaching the Castle Age as soon as possible.
The +1 Pierce Armor for the scout line is meant to slow down enemy archer aggression until the Sipahi cavalry archers are available. Hera recently stated that the Turks are one of the weakest civilizations in Arabia due to the lack of Elite Skirmishers.
However, there are still ways to make the Turks more resilient against mass archers in Feudal/Early Castle Age without giving them a direct bonus:
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The 2024 market update hit the Turks very hard. Previously, you could use your gold mining bonus to buy food with 130 gold to afford more scouts or reach the Castle Age sooner. But now, food prices start at 150 gold. Itâs too expensive. The food prices could be reverted back or reduced to 140 gold.
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Skirmishers could get a +1 attack bonus against the Cavalry Archer armor class, which would slightly help Turkish skirmishers against other cavalry archers.