Two New Civs

The UU needs some change but I totally agree that Burgundians must keep husbandry.

Loosing another key tech for a civ having 50% cheaper stable tech is very bad. And it would also penalize a lot their cavalry.

Tbh, coustiliers may keep their shock attack, maybe being more fragile, or a smaller base attack after the shock. The unit must keep am identity somehow.

Regarding the UTs, i would just say that one of the two can be even removed. For instance I would give a tech helping a bit in the late game, where the civ is a bit in trouble…

I think this:
Burgundian stable discount should be reduced to 33% at least, 50% cheaper paladin upgrade is just brutal, Bloodlines isn’t relevent as they still get the last armor upgrade, especially in team games.
Apart from the bug, Coustilier needs to be more expensive, like 75 food, at least, and reduce PA to 1.
Flemish Militia needs a serious rework, killing your eco to get champion like units in few seconds is broken and silly, ideally what about making villagers upgradeable to flemish militia, you select what ones you want to send to battle instead of all.

Siclians also need something, 50% less bonus damage is absurd and first crusade is broken as ■■■■.

No, they are already worse than Franks and Teutons, this would make them a Z-Tier civ.

Both these civs were design around their specific 50% bonii (50% Stables upgrades discount, and 50% bonus damage resistance).

Diminish it, and they will need massive buffs to compensate, because their economies are not competitive, not even the Burgundians with early eco upgrades.

As both civs are designed around there powerspikes, why not giving them a little powerspike in feudal to offset theirbad eco?

Sicilians could get 2 free archers in feudal and burgundians 2 free knights when hitting castle age.

Then the powerspikes UTs could be adjusted. First crusade reduced or adjusted to pe. 5 serjeants for each tc castle and donjon, flemish revolution at least halved but not sacrificing the eco or only (fe)male villagers become flemish militia. This would make it less gg volatile.

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Sicilans have Spearman-resistant Scouts, and Burgundians have Bowsaw and Heavy Plow.

They have Feudal powerspikes, but nobody uses them because people still have not figured out that Sicilians is actually a Stables civ (not Infantry, and certainly not an UU civ) and Burgundians have to pay for their Castle Age upgrades in Feudal, which ironically hurts them with a later Castle Age.

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It’s because these powerspikes aren’t real powerspikes. Almost every civ has a stronger or earlier powerspike than them. Up to min 20 the sicilians farms, depending on strat, save you about 100-300 res and the burgundians earlier eco saves you about 150 res if you go fc, which is the only strat which makes sense. They are really bad eco bonusses. They may look great, but in depth they can’t deliver because they either enable techs balanced for later states of the game or they need time to pay back an investment you need to do with a weak eco.

And their just little bit better scouts aren’t that great because they have no early eco. Even franks scout rush is better because its earlier and they can field more. Scout rush needs to come early and sicilians have no bonus at all to bring scouts earlier, so their scrush is terrible, regardless of their resisitance.

They are real powerspikes. A few day ago, I made 2 Scouts with Sicilians, and used them to raid, and 3 Spears could not stop me from killing 5 Vills, which gave me a big economic advantage in the long run.
I won that game by the Castle Age, with about 10 Knights, while he was still using Feudal units because of the lost Vills.

Burgundians, if the can get Heavy Plow before laying Farms, which is possible, have an incredibly efficient economy to trasition into Cavalier Spam in the Castle Age, though it is harder to use than Sicilians bonus, but also stronger.

I actually like that these civs are not OP-GG-EZ civs like a lot of people were crying in the forums they were going to be.

They are very “run-of-the-mill”, and that is actually good for them, and the game.
We do not need another Franks.

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Paladin is useless without both bloodlines and plate barding - countered by halbs, arbs and cavaliers with civ bonuses.

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??? Your micro must be insane. Are you kidding? Or have you played against a noob kid?
3 spears easily kill 2 sicilian scouts, and 5 vills kill them no prob too.

Useless, faster castle age is more valueable since you don’t need to reseed regardless, The booming potential alone is much stronger and will payback the investment earlier. Only the wood upgrade might be worth it or gold/stone if you go for some crazy all-in strats. It’s exactly what I say, they seem so strong, but because these upgrades are balanced for later states of the game, they aren’t worth it to make them early. The FC powerspike is so big, the earlier eco upgrades stand no chance in comparison.

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No, it is just that Scouts are much faster than Spears, and Spears are highly dependant on bonus damage to be able to do anything to them.

3 Spears kill the Scouts, but not fast enought that I cannot raid, if I am playing Sicilians. Just attack the Lumber Vills, then go towards the Gold or Farm Vills when the Spears start attacking your Scouts.

Got 5 Vill kills with 2 Scouts in that game.

And I say your opponent must be terrible if this happens. With 3 frank scouts you might have killed 8 vils in that game.

Not really, but I did get him not fully walled.

Against Sicilians, you Wall early, or get Archers or Scouts, to counter them easily.

If you try your regular counter units, they will not do well in Feudal.

3 hits for un-upgraded spearman to kill normal scout with or without armor, 4 hits for spearman to kill bloodlines scout with or without armor, 3 hits for spearman to kill Frank scout without armor 4 hits with armor(+1 attack from blacksmith makes it 3 hits again)

5 hits for spearman to kill Sicilian scout unless spearman has attack upgrade and scout has no armor, then 4 hits (This could be wrong, it may be 4 hits depending on how the game rounds the damage off, it’s either 7 or 8 bonus damage to Sicilian cavalry, it is definitely 5 hits if scout has armor BS upgrade and spear does not have attack BS upgrade) - they’re at least the same as bloodlines scouts / a little better vs. spearmen

edit - numbers for this are spearman attack = 3, bonus to cav is +15 for 18 damage per hit, -50% either puts it at 10 damage or 11 damage per hit, normal scout has 45 hp, frank scout has 54 hp, bloodlines scout has 65 hp, scouts have 0 base armor - sicilian scout should have 1 hp remaining after 4th hit and need 1 more hit to finish off

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I think this is a one-time exception and you would have done at least equally with every scrush civ out there. It’s not due to the reduced bonus damage.

If the earlier eco should be a thing for burgundians they should reduce all eco cost and time by 25 %. This would enable them in feudal.

Still I think with the insane powerspike fc gives you might just get some of them while getting up, can’t really tell if it’s worth it already, but atm i get the castle eco upgrades all in mid to late castle whilst already booming because the higher tc numbers are more valueable in my eyes. Even if the upgrades give you a slight edge some point because they payback earlier, because extra tcs payback parabolic in the end you are far ahead because you have the upgrades AND the vil numbers already. Also extra tcs give more safety for your boom and you can stop production anytime if you need to field more military, whilst the eco investments are gone completely.

And i think this is a good thing, since it proves that despite the big numbers on the bonii, Sicilians are just average at best.

In fact, Magyars and Turks are the best Scrush civs, and even though the Turks would do wosr against the Spearmen, the Magyars wuld likely be able to do even more economic damage, and I probably woould have went with 3 Scouts, from saving up with the free attack upgrade.

They alreday have a heavily discounted Stables techs, so they should pay full price for the eco techs.

Heavily discounted Stables techs is good enough of a powerspike, in my opinion, and coupled with Castle Age Cavaliers, Burgundians should be a Fast Castle civ, instead of a Boom civ, which is what people imagine them playing as, when the see earlier eco techs.

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With amount of bonus against spears I think it is a better option to fight Sicilian scout rush with loomed villagers, definitely better to use your own scouts or archers - will probably still lose a villager if you just fight with villagers but it is better than losing 4 or 5, spears are killing them too slowly they won’t get enough hits in before the scouts run away to a different group of villagers - was opponent fighting with vils too or just chasing scouts with spears only?

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IMHO best option for fixing first crusade is making it work like cuman mercenaries, giving free serjeants to TCs, but instead of popping out instantly you still need to train them. This way opponent has fair time to react, we’ll get rid of pop cap issue and sicilian player need to put some strategic taught behind the choice of going for the tech, because he needs to stop vill production to train those serjeants.

Maybe you’re right, but the guaranteed paladin in 1v1 is quite powerful.
If they didn’t have plate barding their paladin would compare like this to a generic FU cavalier:

Paladin
160HP
2+2/3+2 armor
14+4 attack

Cavalier
140HP
2+3/2+4 armor
12+4 attack

Given the fact that they have instant paladin upgrade hitting imp, costing only 750g 325f and hussars costing only 250f 300g it might be justified. Also they have FU halbs, insane HC to counter anti cav and a pretty strong UU. Depending on how they get changed I don’t mind having those fast power spikes that fall off late game and them having to switch into a different comp.

Their HC is not good at all. The issue with HC is never Damage, but Accuracy.

It is actually not strong at all, specially in the Imperial Age.

They already miss Bloodlines, so their Paladins are only marginally better than Cavaliers as it is, and they fare worse than full-costed Paladins, against Heavy camels and Halberdiers, and the difference is very noticeable.

Well there is a reason why burgundy doesn’t exist any more hehe.
But jokes aside their paladin without bloodlines is still incredibly strong and arguably better than most paladin civs, as they can afford them in 1v1 and the others don’t. Frank paladins with +12 HP over generic FU paladins don’t matter when you can’t get to them. Bad paladins are still paladins and better than cavalier. I’m not super passionate about them losing the armor though.
Also the HC accuracy is actually fine after the patch.