Ultimate Potential New Civilizations Review

With Grenadier Guards, Fencibles, Royal Mounted Police and Princess Louise Dragoon Guards, Canadians will be another North American powerhouse shouldn’t be refused :canada::grin::grin::grin:

Over here (I especially recommend Tom Dillehay):


This is a very nice illustration, although I do have my obvious priorities about which of these should come first if at all, I’d like most of them to be in the game at some point. However, one thing I really do give importance to is campaigns and DE has so far been quite lacking in that regard, I do hope that they bring campaigns with the next DLC even if it’d mean 1 less civ swapped for campaigns for budgetary reasons.


Again, my point still stands - the Comanche accomplished a lot in their little bit of area, but they were never numerous enough to sustain a true empire and their existence started with the horse. If you wanted to include them, imo, the best way to do so would be to create the Shoshone as a civ and give them a Revolution-like option going into age 4 or 5 that would allow them to become the Comanche.

I deliberately didn’t list the Cheyenne. Most of what the Cheyenne did was exist as the closest allies of the Seven Fires, which I did list and who are somewhat represented in the game. One of the Seven Fires, the Lakota, are present in the game, but the other Six are very much not in the game.

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@Josh1Axel You made your point, their fierceness and remote location that allowed them to repel foreign (Inca and European) domination is impressive: let’s welcome the Jivaro! I’ll add them

But in the shared Amazon culture, I might then add the Tupi who were by far the main Native group of the what is now Brazil.

Although they lost aspects of their original traditions quickly, decimated by the diseases through their extensive exposition to European adventurers (populating the coastal Brazil, from where the Portuguese arrived), they intertwined with the Portuguese to such an extent, a new population emerged in Portuguese Brazil, the Mamelucos, that will actually launch the exploration and exploitation of the immense Brazilian inland.


@ M00Z1LLA That’s impressive work, I’ve learned a lot!

First of all, you offer 2 very pertinent arguments: I can’t agree more on the fact we need a Pacific Northwest Native American contender: in this sense, the Haida are a welcome potential addition. Similarly, a strong naval-oriented Native American civ would be an innovative choice.

That being said, would the Haida be the best representative of the Pacific Northwest? This is where I see above all the Chinook or the Nootka in the immediate Pacific vicinity, but also the surrounding Nez Percé, Modoc, Inuit or Aleut seeming to have a stronger impact and influence.

Nootka for example, were at the epicentre of the lucrative Maritime Fur Trade, controlling the strategic Nootka Sound, were capable of fielding armies of 300-400 warriors under Maquinna, successfully assaulted Western ships, and even acted as intermediaries between the British and the Spanish.

In the same way, Chinook acute sense of trade and diplomacy with the adventurers, dominated the region to the point they imposed their language, the Chinook Jargon, as the intercultural language for the whole area.

These 2 are powerful entities sharing the Northeastern Pacific culture, that would allow us to see totems and canoes.

The emphasis on maritime Natives would perhaps been epitomized with the introduction of Pacific Islander like the mentioned Maoris and Hawaiians, or maybe the Inuit.

For the Indonesians/Malaysians, I’m adamant about the Malay World:

Malay world - Wikipedia

As specified in the corpus, I do differentiate Malays from other people of the Indonesian Archipelago, such as the Javanese or the Sundanese. But both refer alternatively to the Malay or Indonesian Archipelago using the common ‘Nusantara’ word, that encompass very much the same area.

Moreover, the Malacca, Aceh and Johor Sultanates are Malay kingdoms that spread over current Indonesia. To gather enough consistence for a Main civ, I’ve chosen to assimilate these close two.

Otherwise, the fragmented political entity of these people might not be enough according to me: the Majapahit Empire as you said, would have been an exquisite choice but it indeed disappeared right at the beginning of AoE3’s time frame.

Malays or Javanese deserve at least to appear as a Minor civ: the game furthermore covers extensively their regions with the maps of Borneo, Malaysia, Indonesia… And I particularly like your idea of having a native artillery unit!


Designating ‘little bit of area’ a territory nearing the size of Texas tends to be undervaluing, but I’ll agree the Comancheria, as well delimited as it was, is difficult to qualify as a true state.

Still, the Comanche ruled that area numbering 8,000 people in 1805, and probably 20,000-up to 40,000 before. The Lakota were 22,000 people in 1786 and managed to keep that number in 1881 (that’s without the other Nations numbers I assume, for which I couldn’t find any study). This tendency further confirms the peak of the Comanche achieved until the 1850s, from when the Oceti Sakowin Confederacy (Seven Council Fires/Great Sioux Nations) will succeed them as the main Great Plains Native American power.

1994-Teton_Sioux.pdf (nebraska.gov)

Therefore, Comanche dominance has to be assessed compared to other Native tribes. After the Oceti Sakowin and the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, few can argue having exerted that much power, over an extended time and a large territory.

Nonetheless, I like your idea of starting from the Shoshone to obtain the Comanche. But yet, I find it not reflecting well the more impactful mark the Comanche left, even though they indeed derived from the Shoshone. In that way, I’ll underline we obtained the US as a main civ, itself an offshoot of the British.

I agree with you on the Cheyenne, that you’ve mentioned twice in your 1st answer: they fit ideally as a Minor civ.

For the Lakota, I too support it’d be pleasant to have a stronger emphasis on the Oceti Sakowin to represent better the formidable force it was. So far, we only have little hints on some HomeCity cards like the Two Kettle, Oglagla, Sans Arc supports etc.

With the Lakota & Haudenosaunee HomeCity customizations coming up, I’m expecting and hoping some work might be done there, just like the Aztecs enjoyed last time.

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I think the Seminole should also be considered for a new civ due to their wars against US.

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The Two Kettle (Oohenumpa) Oglala, and Sans Arc (Itazipo) are all smaller tribes of the Lakota themselves, not the other Six fires. The other Six are the Mdewakanton, Wahpekute, Sisseton, Wahpetonwan, Ihankton, and Ihantonwana.


Seems trivial, but including a civilization in a game it’s a very good way to learn about them, although simplified and often stereotyped.

I never had listen about Hausa/Sokotho Caliphate before AR. Then I learned how the south Sahel was almost fully Islamic.

That being said the implementation has to be carefully done, there were complaints against the inclusion of Cree/Poundmaker in civ6.

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IMO, it would be incredibly difficult to portray all three nations of the Oceti Sakowin properly - the Lakota, Dakota, and Dakhota all resided in different environments and had different ways of life, but considered themselves one nation together. The Lakota were the horselords of the plains, the Dakota were the protecters of the eastern border, and the Dakhota protected the pipestone quarry.
To implement all three into a single civ in AoE3 would require too many compromises to properly represent them all.
While the differences may be trivial, I firmly believe that AoE3 should stick to representing the Lakota while AoE4 would be an excellent place to explore the entire Oceti Sakowin instead.

Chinook and Nootka are already represented by minor civs and neither are any bigger or more powerful than Haida. Armies of 300-400 could probably have been fielded by most of the tribes in the area. Tlingit would be a better option than either of those and I still prefer Haida over them.

Inuit have the problem of not making sense out of their homeland so I don’t see them being a full civ. But they would be a great minor civ:

It seems like your ideas about the ‘Malay World’ are coming from outdated racial theories. Javanese and Malaysians are distinct groups that had separate sultanates like the Malaysian ones you mentioned or Javanese ones like Demak or Mataram.

The Seven Fires controlled an area nearly three times that size. The Haida may have resided solely on Haida Gwaii, but the Potlach Gov’ts that they would be the representing force of controlled a massive swath of land on the PNW. The Iron Confederacy controlled trade throughout western Canada and even into areas that the Seven Fires controlled.
Comancheria was a decent chunk of land, but the Comanche were basically a smaller version of larger, more impactful nations like the Seven Fires or Diné. The Comanche are seen back in history as this incredible force because they simply encountered more people than some of the more northern nations did - Comancheria was smack in the middle of a bunch of trade routes, but they couldn’t expand in any direction because there were nations more powerful than them corralling them into Comancheria.

The red area highlighted under the popup there is basically the entirety of Comancheria. For comparison, below is the effective territory of the Seven Fires (I included the Cheyenne highlighted as well, because the Cheyenne might as well have been the Eight Fire.) The vast majority of the smaller communities within the red blob that is the Seven Fires in the picture below are simply the smaller tribes of the Seven Fires, with only a few not being directly of them - but then people like the Hidatsa, Ho-Chunk, Mandan, and Iowa maintained more settled communities that the Seven Fires acted as the traders and go-betweens of. The Seven Fires were traders, first and foremost - why they’re portrayed as heavily aggressive is beyond me, as that goes against the entire cultural standards and historical records of the people.

Basically, though, Comancheria was not that big. The Comanche were crushed into their territory because they didn’t have the strength to leave it or expand - but they gained a reputation far surpassing what they were capable of because they pushed for it and encountered many many peoples through their territory and pushed the reputation onto them.

As I said, it was an awesome work, pal. I am a world history and political theory teacher, and the work you did is next level great, I should know.

On the other hand, the reason why I see Poland-Lithuania as viable is due to the deep historical connections it had with Austria, Russia, Sweden, and the Ottoman Empire, all of which are already in the game. Plus, their historical reliance on cavalry (that remained legendary all the way up to the Napoleonic Era) makes for a nice niche opportunity as there is no European horse civilization in the game. Sure, they were not defined as an empire, but they were far from irrelevant in world affairs for quite some time. They are not at the top of my list (that would be Denmark) but I would like to see them down the line.


Very pretty selection of potential new civs, but still missing Austria-Hungary and Prussians!!!


Espero que esto te resulte interesante. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Chinook aren’t in AoE3, are they?

Still, with all I’ve read, I couldn’t find enough on the Haida to conclude they had more impact nor more power than the Chinook nor the Nootka. In the end it comes to our personal preferences. Indeed I thought of the Tlingit too.

Agreeing with you on the Inuit

For the Malay, please care to read, implying I’m using outdated racial theories is a serious accusation:

The source!


Sorry, I misread the Chinook subdivision of Kathlamet as Klamath.

I’m not saying you’re supporting racial pseudoscience, but part of the idea behind the Malay world comes from that.

The Malay and their language do have influence over much of the area, but that doesn’t mean every culture in the area is blended with Malay. It’s more similar to French being the dominant culture and language in Europe in the medieval and early modern period.


Yeah, some revolution civs introduced in DE didn’t really become independent until shortly before or after World War 1.