Unexpected Civilization Bonuses

At maths there is a trick about percent of percent.

At Age of Empires 2 it has that unexpected problem.
Cumans provide team bonus (%50 Hp to palisade walls). Byzantines has building HP bonus (%40 HP in Imp). We expect %90 but it gives higher. Even your starting age changes numbers.
There is Palisade walls hp with changing from starting ages:
From Dark to Imp: 527
From Feudal to Imp: 524
From Castle to Imp 526
From Imp: 525
Expected: 475 (250HP +%90)
Note: It also effects Palisade Gates

Then I tried it with Indian Sultans (%10 gold generation speed) with both Aztec (%33 relic gold speed ) and Spanish (%25 trade bonus).
Aztec team bonus its better when started with sultans (I mean starting at Imperial age) gives 155 gold when starting without sultans then researching it gives 150 gold. Also at relic Sultans give %15 more gold instead of %10! (Note: I tested relics with 2 relics and 100 seconds)
At Spanish starting age does not matter but gives more than %35 (about %38).

Edit: I forgot mention Relic gold test. I tested with 2 relics and 100 seconds

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This is because the bonus is not calculated as a whole, but cummulative.

They get +40% and the +50% on top of what it becomes after the 40% bonus applies.

AoE2 always worked like this, which is why devs avoid percentage based bonii.

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I know calculating percentages with different orders gives different values.

But i can’t understand devs avoiding percentage bonuses they didn’t avoid that and this issue may come from forgetten (Indians released in Forgetten).

All eco upgrades work like that. And in x256 tech movespeed bonuses do as well. So this is probably a mechanic from AoK times.

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x256 tech isn’t base game. Developers tried add that but i still dont count it as in base game.

I think civilization bonuses with team bonuses needs to give same thing when starting with same age. It’s a little bit nonsense when your starting age effects your bonus. I know they are not big problem. Like (i am not sure) Indians sultans gives %15 old times (HD) . They made balance change to %10 in also HD. But they forgot editing relic generation speed. It gives %5 more. Its too small number and relics aren’t too reliable gold source.

You know that’s not how maths works right ?

Percentages are multiplicative, not additive. So a 50% bonus + 40% bonus would be 110% (1.5 x 1.4 = 2.1). So it gives indeed the proper 525 HP for palisades in post imp, which is +110% from 250 HP.
The fluctuation based on the starting age is due to rounding numbers with each incrementation, which can cause slight variations.

Same with the rest, Spanish TB + Sultans is indeed +38% and not +35%.

About Relics, you are right that Sultans is indeed not 10%, it’s +17% and there is an actual bug there.

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No, but the way the Genie engine calculates bonii is.

I know i tested this because i really want to know how game reacts it. If i didn’t know percentage calculations a little bit tricky I couldn’t find and even research this bonuses. I think using percentage bonuses from generic value more fair instead of that point.
4HP in palisade walls useless. At aztec team bonus at 100 second 5 gold kinda useless to.
I opened this discussion because I thought its unfair some civs gains even more team bonus when others gains normal.

Think of +50% as x150%

Then +50% and +40% are x150%x140% which is x210% or +110%

Yes game calculates like that but like in your example Byzantines with Cuman ally gets about %70 more hp instead of %50 hp. To me, this is not fair for other civs. If its fair, I have one more question, (game calculates correctly) and starting age changes a little bit result.

Oh wise and glorious one…

Is that how sanctity works?

% works in exactly the way the developers apply them. Don’t try to belittle someone when you yourself are wrong. In most other games bonuses are additive ,just like how sanctity and the aztec bonus work.

Being a % bonus has nothing to do with whether it’s additive or multiplicative of the base value.

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Sanctity is a special case because the description is wrong. The text says it’s +50% but that’s a lie, it’s actually a flat +15 HP. That’s a fault of the description, but the game is actually internally coherent.

And percentage being additive makes absolutely no sense by the way. All percentages are meant to be multiplicative, try adding percentages and the logic breaks really fast.

Let’s assume percentage were additive for a second. Take conscription for example. It makes units train in 25% less time (33% faster = 25% less time). Then Steppe Husbandry used to make light cav train in 80% less time. If both were additive, you would have light cav training in 105% less time, so negative time. Doesn’t make any sense. That’s the kind of stuff that ends up happening when you add percentages.

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They changed steppe husbandry. %50 faster but it also effects steppe lancer. But you are right. I think instead of percentage they can do that bonuses like sanctity. Its same result as adding all of percentage bonuses but if they change that because of my suggestion mods gonna be broken. Instead of that by changing data set a little bit better idea.

The percentages accumulate, think of it like compound interest.

I don’t mind, just in that there’s no obvious crazy issue with it. It’s not like you’ll usually have the doubling team bonuses anyway, and for most civs I’d rather have Tuetons resistance to conversion then mega palisades anyways. Actually, I’d rather have the +3 LOS team bonus then mega palisades either.

If, for instance, two Teuton players stacked conversion resistance then it might be OP.

It’s not big issue you are right but its nonsense. And about stacking team bonuses. It’s hard to add that mechanic by mod but with mods like “9x civ bonus” testable. Teuton team not OP like you think because of monk mechanic works different. When monks reach high percent of chance, monks converts fast.

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You dont need to delete your post we are just discussing. Typos, mistakes aren’t problem. But I read your reply. Its not huge difference between them and game uses your first calculation about Chilvary. I think its fair just think like its better than it says on tech description. A few gold or palisade wall HP does not matter but some civilizations gets more benefit with team bonus than others and I think its not fair. And i need to test researching conscription or Chilvary first does change create speed in my free time.

I dont know reason but in scenario editor I found p1 creates unit faster researching order of conscription or chivalry does not matter

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