Unique technologies for sicilians/burgundians and for the future

Hello everyone! I understand this has been discussed already, but if I may, i’d love to present some other perspective for the new civilizations we got and for the ones we are yet to get.

But first - I’d like to thank to developers for all the effort they are putting into the game → new civilizations, campaigns, events, game modes, balance changes, fixes and updates!:slight_smile: As a fellow developer (not a game developer though), i know how tricky some things might be, and how ungrateful some users/members can be:)

Now, to the point - there are a lot of “unique” aspects to the game that indeed work! Portuguese Feitoriae, Bulgarian Kreposts, Cuman early TC/Siege bonus and so on! However, some things are way too unique to be unique → in other words, they push the civs way too far from the rest.

1) Burgundians

Their coustillier is actually a good idea for making the civilization unique - some people might find it exaggerated, but with correct balance, there should be nothing wrong with the recharge. However, the problems start to arise with their unique technologies. Burgundian vineyards taking all the food away might be too harsh - why not simplify it a little? The idea is there! Instead of changing the food to gold, keep the “farms generate gold” bonus, but enhance it a bit!:slight_smile: This change would be a perfectly normal example of a unique technology!

Same goes for Flemish revolution - the idea is also there, but instead of transforming ALL the villagers into flemish militia, transform only IDLE villagers and allow the flemish militia to be created:) Alternatively, this technology might (also) increase the recharge speed of coustilliers and/or increase the charge attack by 5/10, just so that they could snipe villagers:)

The bonus food of relics could also be increased, or even doubled, as a team bonus:)

2) Sicilians

They are quite similar to the Burgundians → Serjeans available in feudal age, able to build Donjons, while being slow-moving mid hp, mid attack, high armor unit → why not? Seems nice, unique and not especially game breaking - perfect!

But again, unique technologies are the ones that push this civilization beyond the “unique, but alright” boundary. The main issue of Sicilians is probably their lack of strong units later in the game First crusade could be a potential fix! Instead of simply spawning 7 serjeants per TC, why not upgrade them like Serjeants +30% HP, +10% speed - or something similar?:slight_smile: the idea of UQ centered towards serjeans is indeed there! We see unique technologies aimed at unique units quite freqntly - Mahouts increasing the speed of war elephants, Logistica making Cataphracts do splash damage or Rocketry increasing Chu-ko-nu attack!:slight_smile:

Scutage is also a bit weird - instead of getting money for units, why not make something more “permanent”, like Galley and Fire galley line are 20% cheaper (or cost 30% less gold), hell even ships might return some of their original cost after they get destroyed! → the real numbers don’t really matter that much now, but the idea of not making unique technologies “1 time only” is the big deal.

The very very same goes for all the future civilizations - it does not really matter what bonuses they get or if something similar has already been used, but the 1 time only technologies are “not age like”. It would also be nice to change the Paper money to something a bit different, same goes for Cuman mercenaries - but i might be a bit too critical now, sorry:)

Additionally, I have seen Ornlu’s video about “civ completion tier” where he stated that Lithuanian relic bonus might be too strong/snowbally, so maybe changing Lithuanians a bit might be nice, too - e.g:

  1. every odd relic gives +1 attack
  2. remove paladin
  3. remove relic bonus, but bring back leitis armor and add 1 attack for knight/leitis line in imp:)

Similar thing might even go to Indians (based on the Ornlu’s video) → like adding a second archer for the Elephant archer unit (in other words, shoot 2 arrows), bringing back plate boarding armor, but removing the bonus pierce armor for their cavalry and even removing the “imperial camel” (instead, keep the unit for some future civ from middle east, maybe?) and maybe increasing the accuracy of hand cannons instead:)

Thank you all who managed to read it, and i’d be delighted to see other ideas/replies on this topic

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Trust me if you let the player get 4 relics then they deserve that bonus. On average it get 2 relics a game. Some times 3. Its not super noticeable until a big push and you dont just shred everything.


Removing Paladin is actually a terrible idea, Lithuanians have nothing useful gold unit in Imperial Age other than Paladinds

I personally think Liths are fine and they encourage players (whether those playing as or those playing against Lithuanians) to grab relics more, but having arguably the best trash, leitis and potentially 14+8 paladin might be a bit too much, hence this idea (however, changing liths should probably be the lowest priority now)…but this post is not really about lithuanians, but about burgundians/sicilians and 1 time only technologies:) Because if we don’t try to stop this now, then we might see many many more civilizations in the future with similar technologies :confused:

Yeah, that is true…if you lose the relic war and are unable to beat Lithuanians into submission before their bonuses start to kick in/matter, you shouldn’t deserve to win:)

Decent idea.

No the transform gimmick is just too wrong to be salvaged. Making the tech cheaper and but only able to unlock the flemish militia unit would be a lazy, but good enough fix for now.

I don’t think if people would want to see that again. All I would do would be to make their elite upgrade cheaper so that it’s not so much cheaper to get paladin rather than elite coust.

You would need to remove the spawning gimmick to do that. The good news is that the serjeant’s stats could be safely improved without the need for a tech once you remove the dumb tidal wave mechanic, which frees up the tech to do something useful.

I would say it’s on the limit of being “okay”. It depends what’s your stance on paper money.

Option one would make TG players happy ig, idea 3 might make the bonus underwhelming, idea two runs into the problem that it’s worse stirrups/farimba.

This potentially makes it too strong. You get x number of units for Y pricey, while maintaining your eco. It’s incredibly common for players to kill off excess vils later on. Now instead of killing them off they get something even better than 1st crusade was… Part of the fee is your entire eco being nuked.

Nah i disagree on this… In the same way you shouldn’t deserve to win simply by denying turks access to gold.

No player deserves to lose jus because they lost the relic war. Its lazy balance. Like saying you deserve to lose for letting civ X reach imperial.

Very rarely does a civ pivot so much on achieving one thing.

The lith reward cap is too high. Its the first time ive heard of ornlu’s take on it.

But imo the relic bonus should be capped at 3, same thing ive said since last yr. If need be they can get a compensatory buff, but doubt its needed.

Its not a bad idea. And certainly increases the longevity of the sgt. In the same way memelukes are jacked up by zelotry or Berserks have 2 UT.

But a lot of the things you have mentioned here (if not all of them) have literally been suggested in all the countless LOTW threads…

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Well, right now it would be too harsh to remove paladin… but there are civs in similar situation but only with cavaliers.

The problem is that if they remove paladin they should improve their cavalier somehow because relics Aline wouldnt be enough

Sorry for the late reply

I have to disagree in here. The transform gimmick is not terrible idea for the idle vills (e.g. when the gold/stone resources are running out, but you still want to keep a few farmers/lumberjacks and use the flemish militia to push instead of just deleting 30 vills) - it’s certainly better than to transform everyone.

With the recharge speed and bigger attack, it’s not making them OP. One thing is an unit being op at the start, another thing is “upgrading” the unit to be op. Bonus damage via imp technology is a decent idea imo, that doesn’t screw the midgame. Making the elite tech cheaper is a good idea too, thanks:)

that’s the point, i wrote “instead of spawning them”:slight_smile: But yeah, improving one stat (speed) in the beginning, but having a UT for HP is very fine imo, because it also doesn’t overpower the unit from the start.

well, paper money is a terrible tech, as stated:) I honestly think that even saracen monk tech is kinda bad, but still much better than paper money or scutage;)

the problem with that is that you still have to upgrade infantry for FM to be viable, and nuking your own economy is waaaay too harsh → i’ve only seen flemish revolution work once, and that was when the player had a big lead.

fair point

sorry for that. I tried to search for similar threads/posts/ideas, but i haven’t found many;)

Gonna repeat myself long time ago:
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 still need 4 hits to kill halbs
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 still need 4 hits to kill halbs
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 still need 4 hits to kill halbs
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 still need 4 hits to kill halbs

Lithuanian Knight with 16 attack only kill pikes in 1 less hit (5 to 4).
Lithuanian Knight with 16 attack only kill pikes in 1 less hit (5 to 4).
Lithuanian Knight with 16 attack only kill pikes in 1 less hit (5 to 4).
Lithuanian Knight with 16 attack only kill pikes in 1 less hit (5 to 4).

I am sorry for being rude, but this is just ridiculously stupid and totally nonsencical statement.

instead of repeating yourself, you should not have even started speaking. You only consider a fight with full upgrades and unit 1v1. You neglect previous damage, archer/skirmisher support, hill advantage/disadvantage, lack of upgrades and only take into account pikes/halbs…what about everything else like camels, vills, buildings, archers and so on?

Considering just 10% of the circumstances while neglecting everything else is plain stupid, so yeah, better stay silent.

Now ask yourself, how many times the Lithuanian player can collect the relics 100% guarantedd, Hill advantage is merely situational, Camels still beat them cost effectively, Vill, Buildings and archers wtf, the Knight role in the game is to win vs those 11

if the player is not bad, he uses knights to kill vills, siege, monks (sometimes has no choice to run), archers and evades pikes/camels with knights (if possible) + uses hill advanatage. What is cost effectivity for if you destroy enemy camels and pikes with your + 5/6 attack knights and are free to further destroy the enemy’s economy? Winning 4 relics can happen, hence the +3 cap is fair.

Then what is the difference between 22 and 21 attack 11, both are massive, you basically nerf them to civs that are already bad vs cavalry civs (Mongols lack the last armor upgrade to camels, so Magyars with their halbs).

Khmer Elite Battle Elephants have up to 21 attack, they are slower and expensive and even were nerfed by the sole reason of the supreme Khmer eco and how fast they moved, Lithuanians lack the eco that Khmer and even Franks (They are like 100% more picked than Lithuanians in almost every TG) and Teutons have, hence why a strong cavalry bonus is fine.

Even I haven’t heard any pro saying that relics should be nerfed, kinda similar on why Goths are fine despite being OP at Low Elo

Imagine building up your army, and saving stone for TC’s, spam as many TC’s as possible when you’re already pop capped, and then get First Crusade

so lithuanians basically get a worse farimba. no thanks.

“worse farimba” with paladin…yeah, horrible.

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farimba ends up with +3 total attack for knights, light cavalry and camels.
it also cannot be denied.
the lithuanian bonus can be denied, can be taken away, and only applies to leitis and knights.

That is correct, but what is so bad about capping it at +3? Farimba is a quite expensive imp technology, by that point all the relics should have been collected/contested, so you could technically get the +4 (+3) as lithuanians in castle age. And especially if there are more than 5 relics on the map, it can get really bad for the non-lithuanian.

Maybe capping it at +2/3 in castle age and +4 in imp is the way to go.

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How many team games you play?