Unique units vs. Supplies

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

With the supplies tech some infantry unique units(Samurai, Woad raider and Berserk) became rather very very situational and here is the reason.

-For Japanese
Before supplies samurai was both cost effective and better quality compared to japanese champs with +%33 attack rate but now with their champs costing 45 food 20 gold compared to samurai’s 60 food 30 gold cost so this is definitly no longer the case.

So they are no longer appealing compared to 45 f,20g champs with faster attack unless your opponent makes a lot of unique units but even than the most of the unique units can be countered by other units(they have full upgrades arbalest for infantry UUs, fully upgraded skirms for archer UUs and faster attacking halbs to counter cav. UUs)and they already require castle which is an expensive investment not to mention you also need castle for making trebs etc so it almost makes no sense for a japanese player to go samurais at all.

I think samurai should get -5 food,-5 gold from their price to make them viable and without making them unbalanced with cost of 55f,25g.

-For Vikings
Before supplies Berserk was stronger than 83 HP viking champion but now with cheaper food cost again berserks regen doesnt make enough sense to just go for them.

So here is comparison
Elite Berserk Cost = 65 f ,25 g
75 HP, 14 atkk, 2 MA, 1 PA ,0.6 hp regen per sec, with +5 atkk vs cav. also moves a bit faster

Beefy Viking Champion Cost = 45 f , 20 g
83 HP, 13 attk, 1 MA , 1 PA with +5 atkk vs cav.

Again they already require castle which is an expensive investment also harder to mass than champs they cost too much food and lack enough power to make enough of a difference to being worth going for them instead of champion so I think their cost should be reduced to 55f,25g

-For Celts
Elite Woad Raider
80 HP,13 atkk, 0 MA ,1 PA, speed=1.38 cost = 65f 25g

Celt champ
70 HP, 13 attk, 1 MA , 1 PA, speed = 1.03 cost =45 f, 20 g

In melee woad raider wins with 2 hp left( or %2,5 hp left) so basicly their fighting capabilities are same(expect versus archers but they still nowhere nearly good as huskarl or malians’ champs)but for woad raider you need castles, pay 20 more food(%50 more food) and 5 more gold(%25 more gold) per unit for %2,5 combat difference and extra 0.35 speed.

So imo unless you plan to raid with woad raiders non-stop which is quite hard to achieve because massing them is rather tedious due to needing castles they definitly need discount to make more viable.I think instead of 65 f, 25 g it should be 55 f, 25 g .

Also please consider voting for these civs’ about unique units and effects of supplies tech

  • Yes I agree in order to make them viable again they need these cost reductions.
  • Leave them be they are good as it is.

0 voters

1 Like
2

why not giving supplies a second effect for infantry UUs? Like -5g or similar

Still some of the infantry civs we are thinking of, do not require a buff in this moment

3 Likes
3

Berserks and Woads actually see use and both those civs are fine. Samurai are a situation cost effective unit at what they are supposed to be. a UU counter. they could use a little love, but overall Japanese are a good civ.

I don’t think we need to re balance most infantry unique units.

because most infantry UU civs are actually really good and most don’t need buffs (looking at you aztecs, incas, malians, vikings, celts, goths, franks and teutons).

7 Likes
4

Yeah I guess this is the real issue…

5

Well -10 food and -5 gold cost reduction is not a big love but rather little love. Also I agree all of these civs as whole are just fine my only focus is their UUs and supplies tech’s effects on them.

1 Like
6

But having supplies affect infantry unique units is a buff to those civs whether you like it or not, and frankly most those civs don’t need buffs. Some arguably need nerfs.

2 Likes
7

You know, except the fact that berserks are better than militia line in every way. More melee armor, hp, base stats, regeneration, are MUCH faster and therefore not countered as easily by range (If you commit to berserks in castle you can swarm low numbers of xbows). Just because of a minor cost difference doesn’t make them not the better unit to go for. If you have castles up and can make berserks you have no reason to make champs until those castles fall.

Any time I’ve committed to woads, which is what I usually do in a celts game since they’re just such a good unit on their own, massing them and raiding was never the problem. I’ve even won a game vs someone going conquistadors by swarming the conqs with woads when I only had 1 castle to produce from. They’re basically as fast as knights and given all of the bonuses they’re affected by they’re even a bigger reason to not go champion with celts. Celt champions don’t run nearly as fast and are weaker, and certainly are worse at raiding.

Samurai attack speed is faster than militia line, on top of the existing japanese attack speed bonus. Fights with them against virtually any infantry that isn’t toss-up fights like teutonic knight and jaguar, and ofc even low numbers of knights, they shred

6 Likes
8

My opinions:

  1. Berserks: 55F, 25G
  2. Woad Raiders: 55F, 25G
  3. Samurai: 50F, 30G (Could make it train a little slower for balancing)
  4. Jaguar Warriors: 50F, 30G
  5. Kamayuks: 50F, 30G (Could make it train or move slower for balancing)
  6. Teutonic Knights: 80F, 40G

Explainations:

  1. Throwing Axemen (55F, 25G) just stay the same, so that 3 infantry UUs (Berserks, Woads and Throwing Axemen) can be the same cost 55F, 25G.
  2. The cost of Karambit Warriors is reduced to 25F, 15G in the latest patch, then 1 pop of 2 Karambits costs 50F, 30G. So that 4 infantry UUs (Samurai, Kamayuks, Jaguars & 2 Karambits) can be the same cost 50F, 30G.
  3. The original cost of Huskarls is 80F, 40G. So Teutonic Knights cost -5F will make them same price as Huskarls. So 2 infantry UUs (Huskarls, TKs) can be the same cost 80F, 40G.
2 Likes
9

here’s my issue with this. you’re straight up buffing civs, whether they need it or not.

the woad and the berserk are already great units that actually see use.
the samurai admittedly needs love, and japanese aren’t an overbearing civ so i have no issue with buffing them.
Jags aren’t an overbearing unit but Aztecs are so strong that even Viper has said that if he was to nerf a civ it would be Aztecs.
Teutons? no amount of making their UU Cheaper is going to help it be anything more then a situational unit with its speed.

3 Likes
10

Only agree with samurai here, the others are pretty distinctive to make up for the cost

7 Likes
11

I agree on that the samurai need a little love (they are only cost effective against 1/3 of the civilizations unique units, aside from that a champion is better). Not so much with berserkers (because of their regeneration and bonus to cavalry) and woad raiders (their speed makes them also useful for raiding and attacking ranged units).

12

There is no issue.

VIKINGS
Berserkers are still better than champions because of their speed they can take better fights.

They only time when champions are actally better tham berserkers is when you play against eagles because champions have a bigger bonus against those.

JAPS
Samurai is still decent but maye giving them a bit more speed to chase better other UU. Any way samurai is actually faster and cheaper to upgrade than champion (and samurai masses really really fast)

CELTS
why are some people saying wood raiders are too expensive? Wood raiders are one of the best UU. They raid good. They loose to knights, thats true, but you only need to add albadier. I mean, you are CELTS.

3 Likes
13

i’d still probably still use berserks in that situation because

  1. faster movement speed means you can more easily force an engagement
  2. more armor means less damage taken
  3. regeneration means more longevity.
4 Likes
14

Yea it has its pros and cons.

I think champions are supposed to be the way to go against eagles (that’s how it’s “supposed” to be), but sometimes the uu is simply a better option and more versatile.

Let’s compare infantry units bonus vs eagles.

Two-handed swordman: +8
Champion: +8
Berserker: +3
Wood raider: +3
Shotelai: +2
Teutonic knight (very bad at chasing) : +4
Kamayuk: +0
Karambit: +2
Huskarl: +3

Any way, I think we can agree that many of those UU are actually better than champions in a general scenario/game even if they don’t benefit from supplies.

15

oh i’m not disagreeing. and they definitely wreck them much harder (25 damage vs 3/4 armor a swing means 3-5 hits to kill from a champion to an eagle warrior), means they kill them faster then pretty much any other unit in the game, especially for their gold cost.
they are easily better then berserks pound for pound in the fight vs eagles, but the other advantages makes it something i wouldn’t discount right away.

1 Like
16

I thought of replacing Japanese Mini-Castles for 125 stone tech with a boring backstory with a new one:

Daimyoshi (=feudal lord): Castles cost 400s, 300w and samurai cost -15f

Its flavour comes from the Hideyoshi time introducing a class system post the big unifying wars. You need to choose: Either you are a farmer and give up your katana, or you are a samurai and then you are not allowed to own land but your Daimyoshi needs to supply you with land and food. And with the same logic as supplies has that would mean lowering the food cost for the samurai. Hideyoshi, the successor of nobunaga and second of the Grand Unifiers, also built Osaka Castle, a very famous castle at that time, made of wood on a stone plateau, therefore the replacement of stone cost with wood, which we dont have so far. And ofc the Daimyoshi lives usually in a castle.

Balancewise, it would still allow japanese to have really good defenses and build a lot of castles, but they can now also produce samurai better to make them a more important part of their army. The pure numbers are to be argued on, but I like the concept very much. Also fun fact: The third Grand Unifier of Japan Tokugawa who founded the Tokugawa dynasty destroyed Osaka Castle some years later and the Cataparuto tech could be interpreted to represent him. Problematic could be to balance cataparuto and Daimyoshi at the same time, but as its both UT with a good price it should not be that unbalanced. Franks still pay less for their castles when it comes to villager time investment and also have BBC, while Japanese only have Cataparuto.

17

yasama are already annoying mini castles

3 Likes
18

Thats what I meant with 125 stone mini castles :stuck_out_tongue: I dont want to introduce anything like that, which is stated in the whole section above

2 Likes
19

Before Supplies Champions were basically useless with all those civs. Now they’re a decent option and the be honest most high level players still go for the UU if they want standard melee infantry.

I think it’s a good thing that champions now potentially have more of a spot within those civs.

If you want to rebalance UU’s the better way to go would be developing the special role they have, not turning them into straight up better Champions once again.

1 Like
20

You don’t know how speed change everything. I would always go for castle unit if it’s possible. They are more expensive but better to fight.

Just Jaguar and Samurai need a speed buff To 1.05 same speed as Berserker or Huskarl.

4 Likes