Unit Idea: Camel Scout

So I had this idea some time ago, just as a fun exercise of how to introduce and balance a unit, but the idea stayed with me, and by now I think adding it would actually benefit the game and introduce more variety.
So what’s a camel scout?

Basically a downgrade of the Camel Rider available in feudal age for the same cost (55f 65g) of the Camel Rider. This could either be a general unit, or what I think would be a better Idea, a unique unit.

Why would you want to introduce a camel scout?
To add variety. I like the if a civ offers a unique strategy, and as long as it does not result to an objectively best strategy on certain maps this diversifies and improves the game in my opinion. A camel scout would be an alternative to the scout cavalry line in feudal age, and could be used both, for raiding and as a counter for other Cavalry civilizations. It would have the advantage of being a scout counter, and of transitioning much better into castle age than a scout rush, at the disadvantage of:
Lower pierce armor, lower movement speed and higher cost.

What should the stats be?
6 dmg. (+4 vs cav. +2 vs camels and ships)
0/0 armor
2.0 rate of fire
1.45 speed

What do those stats translate to? Why those stats?
They are an alternative to the scouts for raiding: 3 camel scouts (360 ressources) have the same raiding potential as 4 Scouts (320 ressources). Without forging, each one of the group needs to attack a villager 3 times to kill, and the group takes a total of 12 hits from spearmen.
The camel scout would kill an enemy scout with 5 hits, while taking 10.
However the camel scout would be a bit slower (by 0.1 to be precise) and would be more vulnerable
towards arrow fire.
The camel scout also takes 22 seconds to train instead of the 30 of a Scout cavalry. So training 4 camel scouts would take around as much time as it does to train 3 Scout cavalries.

Now what Civ would this be good for?

My personal favourite would be the Saracens:
They don’t have the best win rate right now and already a camel theme. This would be an interesting way to buff them, while their market bonus would also allow to quickly get the necessary gold for a feudal camel rush.

They are heavily reliant on camels already and have very strong camels. I believe in this case the additional pierce armor bonus would have to be changed, to only affect camels in castle age.
With the bonus damage against buildings however I believe that this would be an interesting way to break the meta of feudal walls. Scout rushes are pretty useless on most maps including Arabia in DE. An Indian camel scout rush would circumvent two of the problems a scout rush has:
Being completely negated by palisades, and not translating well to castle age.
An additional nerf could be imposed of having to upgrade the camel scout to the camel rider in castle age though. For Saracens I would make this a free immediate upgrade, however with Indians I would gate this behind another upgrade. This would be an adjust, with new options rather than a straight out buff for Indians.

They already have the theme of being able to do a lot of things a bit earlier than other civs. Camel Scouts would fit well into this theme. In addition, the transition to an immediate Camel army in castle age might be very strong for other civs. I find it hard to assess. Cumans could have this strong camel army, but it wouldnt make too much sense for them to commit to them long term, as they do not get the heavy camel upgrade in Imperial age.

Now, the biggest problem of the camel scout in Feudal age would be the high gold cost. Turks would be able to make more use of them, as they gather gold quicker than other civilizations. In addition they currently do not have a lot of early game options, so this would give the civilization some more options to play around with.

What are your thoughts? Do you think this would be useless/op? How would you fix that?
Do you think this is a good idea to improve the game at all? Do you think they would be used in Feudal age at all, or only be massed up on the way to castle age, which would make it rather boring again?


Feaudal age we are in ancient timeframe, wrong sub forum. This AoE DE I.

didnt realize. Can this thread be moved to AoE2 DE? I cant seem to delete it.

You need contact a mod.

here is the problem with this unit, its easily the strongest feudal unit available, equaling M@A in attack, but with potentially 25 more health, and it completely shuts down everything except spears as options for your opponent. furthermore, such a strong option would only be available to 12 civs as it currently stands, and one of those (Byzantines) gets those units at a steep discount, and another (Indians) gets extra pierce armor, making them even stronger vs feudal archers, and does 11 damage to buildings (6 base + 5 bonus via civ).


I guess I forget to explicitly mention this, but I was more thinking about it being a unique Civ specific unit. Which is why I discussed some of the civs I thought this would be appropriate for.
I have also mentioned that for Indians I would see the clear need of a balance change by giving the +1 pierce armor only from Castle age onwards, and possibly lock the Camel Rider behind an upgrade in castle age, instead of the camel scout automatically being upgraded.

Yes, it would definitely be the strongest feudal age unit, but it would also be the most expensive one.
It would not be able to dive through tc fire the same way scout cavalry would for example, and it would take only 10 archer shots to kill instead of the 15 needed for scout cav.

To be honest, I was more worried about it never being used due to the high cost, and or it being exclusively used to mass camels during age up, before hitting castle age.

edited: typo, changing light cav to scout cav.

Yeah but one is castle unit and one is feudal. Not a good comparison.

Just mistyped. Meant to say scout cav. They still take 15 archer shots (45 hp 2 pierce armor --> taking 3 damage from each shot)

Good idea for a new civ. It’s the second UU for Nubians in my civilization concepts.

It could indeed be cool for a Nubian civ.

Perhaps one with focus on Camels, Archers and Militia line units, but pays for big bonuses by not having any of the last Armour upgrades and no Pikeman.
Something like this:

Archer and Camel civ

-Barracks upgrades cost no Gold
-Crossbowman and Arbalest upgrades free
-Archery Range units get +10% Line of Sight

Team Bonus:
-Camels get +1 Attack

Unique Units:
-Raider- Camel Scout unit that has the same stats and cost, with +5 Attack vs Cavalry. Replaces Scout line entirely. Is trained at the Stables
-Kushite Bowman- Archer with a bonus vs Infantry and high Melee Armour, but lower Range.

Unique Technologies:
-Makurian Footmen- Militia Line units get +30HP
-Bedouin Nomads- Camel units train instantly

Tech Tree:
-Barracks- No Pikemen
-Archery Range: No Hand Cannoneer
-Stables: No Scout, no Cavalier
-Siege Workshop: No Onager, no Heavy Scorpion, no Bombard Cannon
-Docks: No Careening, no Fast Fire Ship
-Monastery: No Illumination, no Block Printing
-Blacksmith: No Platemail Armour, no Plate Barding Armour, no Ring Archer Armour
-University: No Guard Tower, no Bombard Tower, no Siege Engineers, no Architecture

You know this isn’t a word right? It’s bonuses.

So basically a slower plumed archer (since its hp translates into your extra armour)

Also your faction has way too big weaknesses. You’ll get rekt by opposing archer races, at least saracens have some kind of eco bonus and get more hp camels yours has no real counter except skirms (no onagers, no heavy cav, and paper camels)

With paper armour and no pikes or scouts its basically auto surrender on low gold maps or late game with no trade.

I dono why people plan such blatantly warped factions and think they’re remotely balanced.

Infantry are useless vs archers, giving them more hp (look at the TK) will still lead to them being decimated by archers… And no gold upgrade is still worse than Bulgaria and they have much better militia line on top of that

A HC replacement unit, that cannot actually be swarmed over by Infantry civs.

They have Raiders (Camel Scouts) which cost only Food, get +1 Attack, train instantly after the UT, and have a bonus vs Cavalry.
Militia line also get +30 HP.
Not only that, they have ESkirms with Bracer,

They would likely do fine in the lategame, in all honesty, since the Raider unit would slaughter Hussars, for the same cost, and needing no upgrades.

ESkirms with Bracer.

They would be supposed to beat other Infantry and Hussars.

There are always worse aspects on some civs, than in others. You also have to account the savings in Arson, and the fact that they get Crossbowman and Arbalest for free.

That is a lot of Gold saved for Champs, Heavy Camels, Siege Rams or Arbalests.

you know there are other factions with camels as well? how would ethiopians works? either you’re giving a lot of factions a new rush/counter rush/ massing option or you’re giving factions an unneccessary upgrade (for example ethiopians that wouldnt want to train camels in feudal, now in castle age have to tech to standard camel, just to get the worst camel in the game(no blood lines, no eco buff), or you give them a free camel tech, but then why does a non camel race get a free camel tech?)

imo there’s just so many variables… which would lead to either a nerf or buff in unforeseen areas

as much as i like the idea of scout camels i think the issue is far too convoluted… when you could rather just buff the existing camel units if you want to buff those races…

In AoE2?

Please proceed to delight me with a scientific explaination of why Goths and Teutons are actually different racial groups.

P.S.: They aren’t, they are different cultures.

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eskirms with 2 less PA is a massive nerf, “hussars” with no final armour will get rekt even faster by eskirms, pikes, militia, ARCHERS etc, you dont only counter hussars with hussars…

yes man you’re literally as stupid as everyone else that thinks they are “more right” because i dont want to call them civs, which they all arent either… effing strawman you and all the other twits that correct me for calling them factions/races/groups know exactly what i mean

You just made my case for me.

As a Visigoth descendant portuguese man, my 23&Me said I was mostly german, unsurprisingly. So tell me how pale white, blonde, blue eyed me is actually another “race”.

I will wait.

ESkirms benefit more from Bracer than from Ring Archer Armour. Aztecs have great Skirms and that is their situation.

Instant production of Trash from the Stables + intant Heavy Camels fueled by all that upgrade Gold you save, could be really scary for any Cavalry civ fighting the Nubians.

Very nice concept - I have very similar concept - the same Second Unique Unit that replaces the Scout Line and in both concepts Nubians don’t have Pikeman and their Imperial Age Unique Techs are similar - mine: Camel units are trained 50% faster

In my opinion lacking Ring Archer Armor is fine since free Crossbowman and Arbalest upgrades are very strong.
Lacking Plate Barding is interesting because instant training time (Goths almost) can compensate it. I think it wouldn’t be a big problem. Does Raiders have the same stats as Hussars? If not you should give them at least 1 base pierce armor.
I disagree with lacking Plate Mail. I think 100hp Champions wouldn’t be overpowered. They still would die to the “classic” Arbs and Paladins.

About the tech tree: You should give them Siege Engineers. Their Siege is too limited

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I thought about the 50% faster Camel training, but though it would be way more unique to have them intantly trained (like Karambits and Shotels), while lacking the last armour upgrade.

Raider would have the same stats as Scout, possibly wirth an upgrade in Imp to have the same as Hussar, but no upgrade in Castle, since it is essentially already a Scout with a bonus vs Cavalry.
Perhaps Elite Raider.

Maybe, but I just ran with the theme of lacking all lategame Armour upgrades. Celrts too only have to Imperial upgrades at the Blacksmith, and are still quite strong as it is, making it to the top 5 winrates in 1650+ ELO.

It is also a reference to History, in which medieval Nubian footman would wear only chainmail, compared to the Mamelukes brigandines and other types of heavier easter armour, but still pull ahead because heavy armour was quite detrimental in the african heat, and Nubians were quite famous for swordsmen.

Maybe, but without Onagers, BBC and Heavy Scorpion; would they really need it?

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Yes, at least strong Rams and Trebuchet with range.

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