Unusual Buff Idea for Vietnamese: start with a skirmisher

Everybody knows that Vietnamese needs some love. Some say they’re strong post imp but fall behind because they don’t have a good eco bonus, thus an eco bonus would be for the best. Others say that paper money is too niche in a 1v1 (I think the recent change makes it more useful, but I see the point).

Personally, I’d like to see some more unconventional changes to the civ. Recently, I’ve been thinking that a bonus to their early game scouting could be extremely good.

It’s commonly thought that eagle scouts are better than scout cavalry because they increase LOS, but what most people don’t know is that the skirmisher makes a much better scout than the cav, only slightly worse than eagle.

Let’s compare some units in the dark age

Scout Cavalry: 4 LOS, 1.2 movespeed, scout rate of 626 tiles/minute.
Eagle Scout: 5 LOS, 1.1 movespeed, scout rate of 823 tiles/minute
Skirmisher: 6 LOS, 0.96 movespeed, scout rate of 797 tiles/minute .

Wild Boar: 1 movespeed.

The skirmisher would see ~44% more than an eagle, more than twice as much as a scout. Sure it moves slower, but that’s secretly a feature.

In our hypothetical buff, the Vietnamese player has this really fragile, slow scouting unit that is better at scouting. If we pair this with the Vietnamese team bonus of seeing where enemies start, a skirm scout is actually extremely powerful: skirms are by far the best unit you can use to lame a boar. It’s not even close. You can walk across the map with an unupgraded skirm, pick any boar, and lure it to any other point on the map.

Skirms walk just slower than a boar, so you don’t have to worry about microing it back to your TC, just click and forget. Skirms can lure the boar from a range, so they don’t have to worry about taking tons of damage pulling agro.

Yes, the vietnamese skirm-scout will get destroyed if the enemy catches them. However because you don’t have to weave the scout back and forth to avoid losing agro while drawing luring the boar, it can actually be quicker than with a scout, despite the slower walking speed. Like an eagle, the skirm can be healed in the TC, so any damage sustained while luring is superficial.

The potential to easily lame an enemy’s boar reinforces their economy and hurts the enemy, consider it an eco bonus :slight_smile: . Is it guaranteed to get this extra food? No of course not, but if you choose not to lame you still have a unit that reveals more of the map than your enemy. If you wanted to lame however, you could attempt to steal the enemy’s boar as soon as the game started.

If your enemy loses their scout to your TC in dark age, then your skirm becomes much more annoying as it can hit enemies from afar (and do basically no damage, but interrupt them). Unlike scouts, the skirm wont suddenly become useful for offense in feudal age, but because you’re vietnamese it may likely become useful in post imperial.

Tl;DR Starting with a skirmisher would give you high risk, much higher reward scouting unit which has synergy with the civ’s team bonus. The vietnamese would have the best potential to lame an enemy opponent, but at the same time has no way of protecting the unit if caught in the act. If you’re not as interested in laming, the skirmisher is simply better in terms of how many tiles it reveals per minute.

The really nice thing about this buff is that it only changes the early game and affects 1v1s much more than team games where Vietnamese were always ok. Economy damage in the dark age can easily offset an economy bonus, but having a single skirm vs a scout cavalry is inconsequential in the castle age.


I want to demonstrate how good skirmishers are at luring boar:

All the way around the map without getting hit a single time. The queen is where the boar was, and the skirmisher started with the boar on the furthest edge of its sight
Furthermore, because the skirmisher is vietnamese, it has 36 HP, and thus can get hit 5 times before doing (4 times leaves it on 1 hp). That’s far better than any scout could ever do.

I like the unconventional thinking, but I still think it would be mostly considered to be a nerf.

The advantage of a larger LOS is probably largely negated by the slower movement speed, you need to move towards your opponent’s base to see what he is doing earlier because it takes longer to get there, so you are less flexible in your scouting.

The enemy scout could also come forward to try prevent you from taking your boar or deer or to steal sheep, and since your skirm is weaker, it is hard to do something against it.

But the main reason is that if the enemy scout or eagle sees your skirm when too far away from your TC, then they can kill it rather easily. In higher level play this is a problem: 1) you can’t scout anymore whether the enemy goes for a drush, man-at-arms or what military buildings they make at the start of feudal age, and 2) you are a military unit behind, which makes the early feudal age harder (an opponent can do a scout rush and also use the starting scout for it).

Idea: maybe start with a scout and a skirm?

1 Like

This idea is really interesting, but might be a bit controversial as a civ bonus. Maybe getting different scout unit in mega random map will be interesting.

I agree it may be considered a nerf, even though I wouldn’t consider it one. However the LOS vs movement speed favors the Skirm.

I haven’t done much math in a while, so bare with me:

I think the way it works is a Move Speed of 1 = 1 tile/s, so a scout moves at 1.2 tiles per second. In a minute, this means 72 tiles of distance. I’m assuming the unit moves in a perfectly straight line. Impossible, of course, but that’s the best I can think of.

The shape of the scouted area will be effectively two semi circles with a radius of 4 attached to either side of a 72x8 rectangle. The circle is 16pi tiles, plus 576 tiles, or about 626.

Therefore, the scout can scout 626 tiles/minute.

For skirms, your 0.96 tiles per second will get you 57.6 tiles. I’ll round to 57. The shape of the area this unit can scout is a cricle with area 36pi + a 57 * 12 rectangle. This is equal to 797 tiles!

The skirmisher can see 797 tiles in a minute. The scouting ability of the skirm is not the issue, although it will take a bit longer to reach the enemies base.

As for the enemy scout: this is probably exactly what your enemy should do, but it’s harder to lame with a horse than it is with a skirm. It may be hard to defend, but it’s easier for a villager to kill a scout than to kill a skirm. If the enemy has committed to counter-laming you (which is probably a really good move), then your own chances of successfully laming are much higher.

Additionally, the situation where the scout catches the skirm already happens in the current game: if your scout cavalry catches an enemy eagle, it’s in your best interest to kill it. It may be much easier to kill a squishy skirm, but you have far more visibility (44% more than eagle, 225% more than scout cavalry).

Of course though, losing the skirm is probably a real weakness, and you are absolutely a military behind if they choose to go for M@A. I think the skrim + scout cavalry would be serious overkill strong though, since the skirmisher would be really useful for killing early pikes. Even 1 skirmisher + 1 spear to start would be really strong.

High risk, higher reward. It’s an overall better scout and the laming potential is real, especially with the vietnamese bonuses. It’s weaker and slower, but so are eagles compared to scouts.

@Alex0083 I thought of the idea after playing mega random and getting a skirm to start, and using it to lure boar etc.

1 Like

You are wrong on this. In dark age both the scout and eagle can decide not to die: the eagle is stronger but the scout is quicker and can avoid the fight. Only in the feudal age the scout becomes stronger, but by that time the most essential scouting has already been done and by then you can train a new eagle if you want.

oh I thought it was the other way around…

There’d really be nothing you can do to make 1 skirm able to defend itself from either eagles or scouts. Eagles also are better at scouting than a skirm, and the wider range than a scout gives it advantage in seeing the skirm. I think meso civs would be the hardest for the vietnamese with the proposed change.

I don’t think militia have any bonus vs eagles, but even 1 militia and 1 skirm could be too strong to start with.

I will change this idea a little bit: Viet gets a scout AND a skirm at the start!

Is that too strong of a buff?

If only because you’d scout basically twice as well as anybody in the game, and your skirm would be able to kill off lone pikes potentially, making your scout much more threatening

so you have 5/5 pop at the start of the game, you need to research loom instantly, like mayans except you don’t have an additionnal vill.

I think it’s a funny idea but a really bad. It could be either really bad or really good (you can freely harass your enemy woodline with the skrim early on.

A free skrim every time you build an archery range would be more balanced and really good. maybe too good…

There’s plenty of way to buff them without introducing something crazy

I like that out of the box thinking, ut I think it would be highly dangerous to only have an skirmisher. Maybe give them a free archrr when they build an archery range