When massed and in flag aura, volunteers are better than any other skirm too 
3 Likes
Yeah, the Patriotism does reduce cav training time. But it’s only -25% for Hussars and Carbine Cavalry, while the European civs get at -40% with Riding School. This makes a noticeable difference in a treaty game cause you get less effective options with your cav.
USA:
Patriotism (home city) -25%
Mass Cavalry (church) -35%
New Mexico Immigrants (state capitol) -10%
Total: -70%
Hussar: 40 second train time → USA takes 12 seconds to produce a batch of Hussar
Other European civs:
Riding School (home city) -40%
Mass Cavalry (church) -35%
Immigrants (state capitol) -10%
Total: -85%
Hussar: 40 second train time —> European civs take only 6 seconds to produce a batch of Hussar
I know many people don’t think 6 seconds that it’s that much of a difference, but @VotelessClub77 was right
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You have to wait in multiples of 12 seconds instead of 6 to mass cavalry. You can’t punish people for leaving artillery out in the open as easily, or to decimate an undefended mass of skirms for the same reason. Sending out 10 hussars to do so isn’t as effective or as tanky as 20 hussars doing the job for the same amount of time, and your huss get picked off easier
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If you’re fighting face-to-face, your infantry’s gonna have to wait a noticeable amount of time before cav can rescue them to tank shots from skirms and artillery and to multiply your killing power. This is worse for the US because you can’t even make cannons fast either to save your infantry mass from collapse.
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I don’t know about the exact training time for Carbine Cavalry, but I already foresee the difficulty in reacting to high-siege cav plays from the enemy. If it takes you 10+ seconds to jut out just like 10-15 carbines, high-siege cav in a mass will have already taken down a building or two, rendering the US punishable to those kind of attacks. (They don’t even have halberdiers either and musks won’t kill a mass of moving cav as fast either)
Sure you can judge the units straight off the stats, but training time will be one inhibitor that won’t make the U.S. a superpower in treaty. India is the best case of how a civ with strong units will still not perform as well as other civs in a treaty game, with awful training times as one of the big ones.
If anything, I’d say it’s a decent balance (some stronger units with slower training times). But I can’t see how the U.S. would be any means OP though, if we’re talking late-game/treaty
2 Likes
Hold on so this gives 3 and not 2?
2 Likes
200 villagers, 3 pilgrims, 5 settlers wagons, a bank, 3 factories, fur trade, anymore??
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the factory build limit is still 2 , you just have an extra wagon
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But all other civ’s Factories are irreplaceable, while the USA can replace one of theirs.
It is still a huge advantage.
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Sure but the game is about civs having unique advantages. Dutch can get 5 rebuild-able banks, port gets free tc, Russia have a barracks+ house + outpost all in one, germany has 20 settler wagons that are highly upgradeble. all the house factories that are rebuilable that swedes, Japan and inca gets. You can go on and on.
US gets factories in age 3, thats their gimmick. Is is strong, hell yeah. Too strong?, arguable depending on their age 3 eco otherwise ( no vil shipment, units cost more)
2 Likes
Floko himself that is a very high player in treaty, said that the civ feels very solid but it’s not close to being one of the best ones. In supremacy many high players put them in mid tier right now too, including Aiz.
PS: You are also ignoring that their Age II skirms tickle the units they are supposed to counter.
Not true man. Their volunteers can kill axe raiders, and they can turtle enough to force lakota into middle game. I am not the best lakota player but i have been beaten by the USA with lakota several times now.
1 Like
And free upgrades, better Musks and Skirms than anyone else, Ranged Cavalry with more Range than Portuguese Dragoons, faster shipments than Spanish, Bank-Churches, highly upgradeable Vills, a lot of Native allies, better Navy than everyone else…
USA has no gimmick, it is just designed to do everything better.
3 Likes
This could actually be easy to overcome. When aging to imperial, just reset the Factory shipments. Hence if you lose a factory you can still replace it once. Yes the USA can do it one more time but its not that big of a bonus in that scheme of things.
Please keep it a fair comparison.
First of all it is not possible to have 3 factories. If you choose the factory while ageing, then you can only build one further factory from the homecity shipments. I know that many people mentioning the three factories but it is ■■■■■■■■. Please test by yourself.
And that factory from ageing does not allow the upgrades until you are one age further.
When having 200 villagers you cannot have military units so this is not a fair comparision and you have to carefully wheight between amount of villagers and military units. In addition the military units of USA a relatively expensive compared to other civs meanwhile the USA economy as explained isn’t OP.
6 Likes
If having the option to rebuilt one destroyed factory is considered a huge advantage, I though I’d list some of the things USA do worst than others.
List of huge disadvantages of playing USA
- Age up bonuses are slower (all Age up bonuses are weaker to compensate for cards: cards are good but require shipments)
- XP church tech send crates instead of instant deposit
- Imperial Eco techs cost the same thing, but only give +40% increase in gather rate
- Worst walls in the game (unless the Heavy Fortifications card is used, but I think this is a bug)
- Cavalry train 2 to 4 times slower than other civs. in Late Game
- No melee options outside of the, serviceable at best, hussars
- Nearly all of the most powerful bonuses are locked behind cards and do not give an immediate bonus = opportunity cost
Exemple:
Receiving Free market upgrades are nice, but it still requires you to build the market and the time to research as well. If the opponent sent military units, he might well win the game or take the lead before the benefit of the techs in the market kick in.
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What about Czpka Ulhans or Magyar Hussars? Cause i seen those guys doing massive damage.
Isnt the bigger bonus their flexibility? With the same deck you can actually adapt to what your opponent/game develops in?
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Yes, they do, but the are very expensive, costs 3 pop (magyar) and needs HC shipment. Therefore not OP but balanced in my opinion
If you can afford the (costly) shipment, you’ll still have to take into account the fact they are trained FOUR time slower than your opponent cavalry and only from Forts.
The way I see it, it is more an illusion of flexibility most of the time for many cards. You might delay the Free Market if you want, but even if you send it later, your opponent can still send units at that point also. Worse, he might have made his own upgrades in the market sooner than you and more than refunded what he paid.
The same logic applies on most shipment.
Nice, a bank!
But how much time will in take to refund itself?
And what can your opponent do with those 350 extra ressources + shipment?
Opportunity cost is a very important concept, especially in a fast pace game like this.
3 Likes
Exactly. Fully agree.
It is not thought about it until end when a lot of post’s in this forum just argueing that there are a lot of options and therefore say USA is OP.
That isn’t the truth at all as opportunity costs inflicts that significantly, like you said.
And exactly that is what I love with the USA. They can be played in so much different ways (playstyles) without beeing OP at all.
I still agree that USA are one of the stronger one civ’s but with regard to opportunity costs not OP
Isnt the Shipment just 1000g each? I dont have the USA yet so my only take is from fighting them in 2vs2, and those pesky Czapkas in 3rd age with gatling guns and volunteers behind are kinda of OP.
At least In my elo range (which is mid high 1700-1800), i have been constantly pummeled by the USA.
12 Uhlans are 500F + 500W, so about the cost of 6.6 uhlans
Certainly a good bargain because they come with Industrial upgrade. But my original point was more about the lack of an easily accessible melee option outside of hussars.
I certainly do not think that this specific shipment is bad.
Play treaty and you will see how 200villagers are a huge bonus having fur trade too.
Migrants card should be double-edged, with pros and against effects