UU counters

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

I have a bone to pick with UU that are otherwise well rounded but there one gimmick is they counter one unit type into oblivion units against some more rounded civs this isn’t a problem, but many of these units just invalidate other units that are essential to the strategies of other civs creating are civs wins. Many player would argue that you shouldn’t let player get to their UU which is good advice but misses the point. your gains opponent a substantial advantage because they got a castle up and didn’t not die, but what did they really to earn that advantage they didn’t really outplay their opponent but are rewarded regardless.

Camel Archers: counter cav archer if you play a civ like you Mongols, Huns, Tatars you are forced to basically ignored a large part of your identity or get punished.

Mangudai: your opponnent can no longer make seige the only exception being trebs and bombard cannons who can still be easily be sniped. You basically have no options counter play as Celts except hoang-rush and most player can’t execute a proper hoang-rush.

Genoese crossbow: Screw you Magyars, Mongols Berbers, Tatars, Cumans, franks and Huns,

Huskarl: Not only do i make archers irrelevant but i’m also created from the barracks the only way to counter me is HC and Melee units the later of which is counter by the rest of my Composition

Samurai: any melee UU

For the sake of comparison I think I should point out that that operate similarly but aren’t unfair to fight against

Rattan archer: High pierce armor but doesn’t shred your opponent’s archers can they still use their archers against your other units but still need an answer to your Rattan archers. Ex. Plume/eagle vs Champ/Rattans

Magyar Hussar: counters siege but unlike Mangudai they are a melee unit that can be deterred by halbs.

Plumed Archer: while powerful are not too big of a middle finger to infantry civs since they only deal 1/2 bonus damage are susceptible to regular archer counter and each infantry civ has a method of dealing with them (except Vikings). Goths have Huskarls, Celts have Siege, Japanese have FU Skirms, Slavs, Malians, and Bulgarians have good Cavalry.

Throwing axemen: are countered by archers and seige.

2

Against mangudai, you would need siege engineer siege onagers en’mass, not just 2 or 3, but a solid 4-7 and to keep up that number while guarding against dive bombing scouts.

And at some points you may need a mass of 8-12 siege onagers to deter larger numbers of well mocro’d mangudai.

As well as to place them all on no attack stance and attack one or two or three at a time per hotkey binded so they have less ability to dodge via multiple separate barrages.

3

All of these are fine. UU see so little play anyway it is fine for them to hard counter stuff. It also incentivizes actually using them if they are good against stuff that the enemy is using.

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4

Camel Archer sees play almost every Berber match though, probably because of Kasbah their training time is almost half of regular cavalry archers, plus regular HCAs are not so good for Berbers due to Parthian Tactics missing in their tree.

5

And they heal, have good base attack, deal bonus damage, and most importantly: look cooler :joy:

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6

I think Camel archer is used a lot because is the best answer for Berber to answer pikes.

7

Kamayuks in the corner forgotten again :sob:

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8

Its not that they are over powered it’s that it a giant middle finger to your opponent if your playing Celts there is nothing you can against mangudai. If your Berbers you get to counter the go to unit of CA civs for free and genoese crossbowmen counter your entire Composition for free forcing you into Skirms In both cases one player has an unfair competitive advantage entirely because of the civ matchup.

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9

I actually prefer UUs with unique specifications and counter mechanics over “generalists”.
What’s the sense of a UU that is basically just a better version of what’s actually in the game?
What’s “unique” about that?

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10

UU requires castle and stone investment. Whats wrong with being better than generic units?

Spanish Conq is fast moving HC and Turk Janissary is HC with more atk and range. That compose their identity and makes them unique. UU can be a power unit. Or UU is just counter unit, like GC, slinger. Or very niche unit, like Ballista Elephant. OR combination of power and counter unit, like rattans. Thats diversity and uniqueness.

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11

It’s ok if there are some UUs that are just slightly better versions of common units.
But I personally prefer UUs with unique counter mechanics.
And tbh it would be kinda boring if we only had UUs like keshik or woad raiders. I don’t even know how you could possibly design 39+ of this kind of units.
Ofc UUs need unique balance especially UUs like mangudai. But as long as they are balanced it’s nothing wrong with having them in the game.

12

No in most games FU Siege Onager is a fantasy as it cost 2750F 1500G 600W against Mongols it is suicide as you investing everything inorder to maybe get to a position get were you can maybe deal with Mangudai dependent on micro if your opponent snipes your SO before you reach a critcical mass you are dead if your opponent is really good at micro you are dead If your oponent pushes you before you even have SO. Even if your not against Mongols investing 4850 resource into upgrades rather than units is very risky and will easily lose you the game if SO doesn’t get immediately get value.

13

SO is no 1v1 upgrade. And yes I agree that the current mangudai design is still somewhat problematic. But tbh it’s also because cav archers are a way too strong lategame unit in general - and mangudai counter that usual last counters to stop that unbeatable ball.
I think it would only benefit the game if cav archers would be easier to get into but have more lategame counters. (Genitour eg)
But ofc this would be a massive change to the game.

IDK I can understand why the mangudai design is so problematic, but most other units are totally fine.

14

Most civs have also elite skirmishers with all upgrades that can cost effectievly beat all of them.

Huskarl has low melee armor, hell they even lose to ordinary hussars XD

And at the same time ranged UUs destroy samurai, Jannisaries, Mangudai, Plumed archer…

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15

I agree with the principle of your case, and the particular case that is Camel Archers is particularly compelling.
And Camel Archers could easily be unique enough without anti-CA bonus damage. They’ve already got regeneration as a unique feature.
If they’re competitive enough when facing units that aren’t CA, they really shouldn’t be dealing 70% extra damage against CA, especially with most civs not ever making CA that’s asking for trouble.

But I like Mangudai, I’ve never seen Genoese be an actual problem (though I accept there exist games in which they are strong), and Huskarls act as a kind of Hussar/Skirm replacement and I don’t think the core idea of the unit is a problem.
Samurai should be removed from the game.

16

Idk I’ve seen steppe civs win plenty against Berbers by using a hussar meatshield. Most of them can also use the halb+siege approach.

17

yes but countering Goths with melee units is a bad Idea if you go hussar, they go halbs, if you make champions, they go for their own champions. this is what makes post imp goths so unbeatable you might consider huskarl make archer non-viable despite the fact that they are missing the third armor upgrade so you have to beat them in a melee fight and there are only a few civs that can really do that Teuton, Bulgarians, Japanese, Slav, Vikings and Celts Aztecs, and Byzantines.

18

I disagree with some of these examples. A few Elite Skirmishers can keep Mangudai away from Siege or punish their snipes. Similar story with Camel Archers and Genoese Crossbows, just make Elite Skirms to protect your gold units.

Goths can be tough to beat, but most civs do have options. I was playing Britons vs Goths recently on arena, a pretty bad matchup, and I managed to beat the flood of Huskarls and Halberdiers by switching to mass Scorpions + Light Cav (after opening archers and knights to encourage the Huskarls and Halbs). If I was smarter I would’ve thrown in some Champions because the Light Cav were a poor meat shield. I can see your point about not wanting to change strats (and staying with archers for Britons), but I find it refreshing sometimes to adapt with a plan you would not normally use.

19

Only only 3 of these civs have FU skirms Mongols and Huns are missing RAR, Cumans are missing Bracer, and Franks are missing Bracer, RAR, and TBR. Also Italians have answer to Elite Skirms they have BBC, Hussar, Cavalier, or even Onager.

20

Well genoese xbows have less range than arbs precisely so that no bracer civs can use their skirmishers more easily against them.