Viet need change or small bonus

[NarrowBubbles54]

@JokerPenguin593

Even free conscription could be compared with aztecs training bonus. Most ideas are already covered and some overlapping is unoavoidable, like magiar/berber scout discount or turks/tatar scouts pierce armor

Oh, so any small bonus more it will be make they better. But still need change from game creator.

[NarrowBubbles54]

@CactusSteak2171

No need to care about overlap when there is literally nothing to do because Vietnamese are fine and this thread is based on the (false) opinion that they are a bad civ.

No I don’t say it bad civil now, from 2020 when give eco upgrade no wood it had better but not Change too much, before 2020 I always said it bad or worst but now it quite. But still lack a little bit more special with me is delay frame shoot from rattan. And for wood you cant reserve too much before castle age( especially map no wall already, you must spend wood for other building).

[Albeman3246]

@JokerPenguin593

You missed the third option in between these two: start the match, pick your initial 4 sheep (use them to scout your surroundings), and send the scout to quickly explore enemy surroundings. Then come back and push 1 or 2 deer. If you meet some enemy sheep in the way, great, but the main goal of this is to find their main gold and berries and see if his map is wallable or not. This way you can adjust your build order soon to a scout rush or tower rush, which usually surprisenthe enemy when they are expectint m@a into archers. You obtain 2 deer as a little advantage (less than in your blind_date rush) but your first rush will hit in the nail)

Although this require so much scout management that I often get housed…

It is sort of laming option, a variant with more scouting and less stealing. I agree could be effective, but with a note: if the opponent scouts you properly and sees what resources you are collecting, you’ll lost the surprise effect.

[EvilPanda494]

I agree they are in a fine spot but their UT could use some help.

Paper Money should be Castle Age and should not cost Gold, or barely any gold, while chatras should be Imperial age tech

[NarrowBubbles54]

I agree with you UT need appear in castle age. And reduce cost = burgundian. But still want a little bonus too

[xPizzaSamuraixD]

Ofc I know what he’s trying to say. I already replied to his threads before.

But as I said many times before months ago, viets were fine. They were already strong in feudal and imperial age. That was okay, and it wasn’t necessary to change anything about them. Imo their only problem is castle age while trying to be defensive or finishing off the enemy fast enough. However, viets still got 2 recent buffs which didn’t help with that issue. Surely you know that because you also tried to brainstorm a better buff back then.

[xPizzaSamuraixD]

Uhh I don’t think that helps their weakness. Even if you reduce the cost or swap paper money and chatras, viets are still going to be vulnerable in castle age. Meanwhile still lacking a power spike for early imperial because lumberjacks to gold trickle isn’t that at all, and imperial chatras means your meatshields will be delayed.

Imo the original idea devs had was ok, just needed to be bolder:

1. Conscription is free
   Conscription and hoardings available in castle age, but no longer free.
2. UT Paper money
   UT Monetary reform (500f, 300w)
   First effect: The vietnamese get 750 gold, but no longer affects the team. The UT is researched instantly.
   Second effect: Foot archers move 10% faster.

[EvilPanda494]

sorry on the little bonus i do not agree. they feel solid to be and with many options available, from arbalest to rattan, from imperial skirms + elephants combo to BBC with SE push. only think i would change is that i would like the TC thing as a team bonus and the imperial skirmisher into the game as a general unit since its the only unit asyde monks (who upgrade in a different way trough monastery techs) to not have an imperial age upgrade.

if that is changed, then viet can get something new to compensate

[NarrowBubbles54]

I still waiting for change from aoe2.

[coolios9876]

I appreciate this has zero chance of happening due to up setting the status quo / civ identities but an idea I was mulling over was what if we swapped the genose crossbow with the ratten, i.e. Vietnamese get anti cav archer and Italians get anti archer archer. ( Obvs other adjustments would be needed to fully balance it like giving Italians halbs)

For the vietnames it solves the double dip problem of rattens Vs imp skirm as well as giving them a bit more defence against Cav civs which are their biggest weakness by a mile.

For Italians it gives them a better option to defend against archer civs whilst still retaining their “sea civ” identity. (Also makes more sense the genose xbow being better at blocking arrows with that huge shield).

[CactusSteak2171]

But pavise would be 100% useless on a unit that already has high pierce armour. Not to mention that if Vietnamese are “weak” to cav civ, then what’s the use in switching that around with Italians?

[AbuzzJam4677680]

@coolios9876

swapped the genose crossbow with the ratten, i.e. Vietnamese get anti cav archer and Italians get anti archer archer

Genoese isnt really very reliable to counter cavalry in 1v1 due to difficulty in massing. If you give anti-cav bonus to rattans, same problems with rattans. But in TG, GC-like rattans+ elephant will doom the opponents with ease.

[JokerPenguin593]

@coolios9876

For Italians it gives them a better option to defend against archer civs whilst still retaining their “sea civ” identity. (Also makes more sense the genose xbow being better at blocking arrows with that huge shield).

Rattans block the arrows with their hats

[TungstenBoar]

Tbh foavour wise I dont see how anti cav archer would fit that well with Vietnamese. Sure, it would be interesting since they would have three very good specialized units with diferent niches but not sure what would the anti cav archer represent

[UpmostRook9474]

@xPizzaSamuraixD

Conscription and hoardings available in castle age, but no longer free.

-33% train time in castle age. Sound terrible.

@xPizzaSamuraixD

Second effect: Foot archers move 10% faster.

It could be an UT or civ bonus for a new archer civ.
However, fast moving elite rattan archers and more HP arbalesters. I don’t feel it is balanced.

.
Please let me explain my previous suggestion.

@UpmostRook9474

• Add other team bonuses which reveals the opponents’ first TC or/and provides free Conscription.
• Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade, similar to the free Pikeman upgrade for Ethiopians.
• Make ALL techs cost no wood or 50% wood.
• Paper Money costs food instead of gold, and also provides some golds to the team members again, which lets it able to be the emergency button again while keeping the current effect.

One or some of them could be good enough.

1. Allies can also see the opponent’s TC, or/and can alse enjoy free conscription in the Imperial age, which are decent and balanced team bonuses. For that, I’d be happy to even make Imperial Skirmisher a non-shared unit like the Imperial Camel. Even, in the hands of some civilizations with skirmisher bonuses, Imperial Skirmishers are detrimental to the balance of the game.

2. Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade is in line with their characteristics of anti-archer. Especially if the Imperial Skirmisher become their unique unit, this would be similar to Ethiopian free Pikemen upgrade.

3. Also discounts the wood cost of all techs, including economy techs, Ballistics, Thumb Ring, Siege Engineers, Hoardings, and unit upgrades. Although no longer free the wood cost, this would greatly activate this bonus, helping both the economy and the military. By controlling that discount amount, it’s also pretty easy to keep the balance.

4. I think this UT must maintain the nature of economic tech, so the cost must be more reasonable and not include military effects. While maintaining the current effect, It is worth restoring the old effect of the emergency button, which has actually unexpectedly saved players in many games.

[TungstenBoar]

@UpmostRook9474

Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade is in line with their characteristics of anti-archer.

Free elite skirm would be a bad idea for a civ that already has good match ups vs other archer civs

[UpmostRook9474]

I accept your opinion, this is the one I also think is the least needed and least expected of the four suggestions.

[PlumpDucklin]

@UpmostRook9474

• Add other team bonuses which reveals the opponents’ first TC or/and provides free Conscription.
• Free Elite Skirmisher upgrade, similar to the free Pikeman upgrade for Ethiopians.
• Make ALL techs cost no wood or 50% wood.
• Paper Money costs food instead of gold, and also provides some golds to the team members again, which lets it able to be the emergency button again while keeping the current effect.

Sorry I don’t understand the logic behind this.

They’re all over the place. So do you have an idea where Viet actually need to be buffed?? Instead of “something random”

The TG is OP. And has no effect on 1v1

They’re an anti archer civ already, so why boost them in that field?

Their early game if anything is lacking (if they don’t lame), so why Imperial buffs?

Leaving only the eco buff.? Which I think is ok…but not particularly exciting.

[UpmostRook9474]

Well, let me be clear, I don’t actually think Vietnam really needs any important buffs.
True, they’re not a popular civ, but they’re in a good spot out of the forty-plus options. The explicit characteristic of the civ make them even more interesting than many civs that are considered strong or well-balanced. Even that, they still have a place in the matches.

My suggestions may not meet some people’s needs because those are changes that I feel may make this civ more fun and convenient to use, not because I think they’re particularly helpless in those places.

[NarrowBubbles54]

@PlumpDucklin

Viet actually need to be buffed?

Against archer civil but it not exactly this civil have.
1 : 20% hp for archer but different with infantry or cavalry. Archer + 8 HP too low if compare with frank or viking( and + 20% have do good like people think? 1 shoot of mangonel still kill same unit like other archer it not ok with other civil) and rattan not give it while mayan get_ reason rattan + 5 HP after update. Bonus more for bonus or change to + 10% or 20% speed for archer better.
2: skirmish good bc it + 20% hp but upgrade not cheap and do not good after really late game and if upgrade it you will hard for upgrade others unit and easy bé kill.
3: high pierce armor but rattan still get bonus damage from skirmish, frame delay 23?? ( Include longbow delay 16 ? Speed shoot belong to slowest archer. But most expensive cost. ( Remove p a and change other bonus Viet use poison in arrow when fight so can change from tanky archer to damage archer_ so let they same with archer line but damage +6(+4) and damage can hurt follow time ( - 1,2 every second and - % healing of unit( include monk) _ if anti archer civil please let they get unit anti archer don’t skirmish it standard unit for all civil
4: like people say need change UT for castle age and imper age. And reduce cost = Bulgaria cost. ( 2 civil same so need same cost).
5: economy now ok better but not stability, it not work by the other civil get bonus immediately bonus. And no wood look like ok but spend not much when you see at feudal have 150w but you must use 300f for all upgrade tech.
6: reveal enemy look it ok but not ok with people don’t steal animal from enemy, just ok when you let same Portuguese.