Yes this is true if a civ underperformed only in the tournaments played under one patch or a couple of patches but some of the civs have been popular across many patches and some have underperformed for several years. That just means that irrespective of the changes in meta or civ balance, some civs are weak.
This would impact the stats of civs which can be perceived as “counter picks” for civs in the opponent’s draft, typically the civs which have average stats, but not the civs which are uniformly picked by most of the players or ignored by most of them. And in many tournaments players face multiple opponents, so
That’d be great as well but since we don’t have it, stats is the closest best thing available. And in a way data from about 3 yrs of tournaments tells their thought process. Obviously they’d prepare certain strategies but civs like Mayans are picked by almost everyone under every setting indicating that everyone feels they have a good shot of winning with them.
Something like this has been suggested before, but people dont want to give them a bonus similar to the aztecs faster training speed bonus.
They partially compensate for the lack of masonry with the free conscriptiom bonus. But in the end the opponents can always research it as well so the advantage for free conscription can be very small sometimes.
Maybe nerfing the price or research time for conscription could make the bonus more appealing.
I think I’ll elaborate this. Archer depends on their damage output and power spike of new age. I think buffing the power spike will go with Vietnamese design. They are meant to be aggressive from the start of the game as they have enemy location.
I proposed “Free Conscription” replaced by “All archer related technologies and upgrades are 50% faster”. Related technologies are -
Feudal Age
Fletching
Padded Archer Armor
Castle Age
Crossbowman
Bodkin Arrow
Leather Archer Armor
Thumb Ring
Ballistic
Imperial Age
Arbalester
Bracer
Ring Archer Armor
Chemistry
This is the double rate of Portuguese TB but for a very specific strategy.
Most Paladin civ have heresy and it’s not considered op. One of the problem with elephant is that monks counter extra ultra hard, an elephant conversion is a 360 resources swing, converted elephant take a ton of space and take forever to removed, just a few conversions are enough to stop the advance of many more elephants. Unlike Knights who might kill a monk before being converted(if they can reach it), Elephants are so slow they don’t stand a chance. A conversion with heresy is still worth 180 resources, that sound like decent trade to me.
In the case of Vietnamese have Elephants be converted completely invalidate their use as meat shield.
Even whith Palading being a powerhouse unit, I think comparing them with elephants is not fair. If any, we should compare them with elite battle elephants, because paladin came into play in the late game.
By then, monks are not as powerful as before due to micro issues when trying to manage a big army. So elephants should be compared most of the time with cavaliers.
Also, besides paladin costing less resources, they have more speed so they can try to snipe monks in some niche circumstances while elephants cant.
On the other hand, heresy is a castle age tech, not an imperial age. Vietnamese could make use of that tech while massing elephants before ageing up to imperial age and stomp the opponents in a surprising transition. That isn’t feasible in open maps, but can be hurtful in black forest.
Wow, Viper used just 3 tiers effectively. Its like everything good is S, anything decent is A tier and only the ones with a lot of weaknesses is B tier in his list. Btw, sorry I didn’t watch the full video but does Hera, Yo or Viper mention if their tierlist is for KOTD5 in particular? Because I remember seeing a video from Hera, Liereyy and Heartt sitting together and creating an arabia 1v1 tierlist not long ago. And that was much different than this recent tierlist.
I dont know about Yo’s, but the other two talks about arabia (not only KOTD). Viper comments at the begginning the winrates of KOTD5 before making the tierlist
Vietnamese are pretty good civ, as you mentioned Viper put them A tier. I think anyone who thinks Vietnamese need a buff doesn’t know anything about this game. In this forum I saw lately a topic who asked to buff Franks, Khmer, Aztecs & Burgundians, you should expect anything here.
I think after consecutive direct and indirect nerf on crossbow-line, it is arguable to buff archers for weaker archer civs. (eg. viet, koreans and italians) Like a new generic tech in range to slightly reduce the cost or frame/attack delay of xbow. Or allow these civs research ballistics or chemistry in archery range tech without spending for university.
I think the “weaker archer civs” perform pretty well at pro level (on arabia) and very poorly at low to mid elo.
And I believe the poor performance at mid elo comes more from meta and micro limitations than game knowledge.
At a pro level dominated by xbows and mangonels, 20% hp on skirms and xbows comes in much more handy than at a mid level dominated by knights.
Likewise, knowing the opponent position allows easier laming, deer pushing and better overall scouting, which pros can take better advantage of.
If you arent in a position to make use of these, Vietnamese are left with an unflexible eco bonus of 125w at 11 minutes and additional 300w at 22min, which isnt impressive.
Pro winrates really aren’t that great at telling what the actual strength of a civ is, because the high ELOs get inflated slightly. If you compare the 1900+ winrates to the 1200+ winrates, you’ll notice that 1200+ win, on average, less than 50% of the time, while 1900+ win more than 50% of the time.
Which makes sense; 1900+ can’t find anyone stronger than them, so they most often face weaker opponents.
I believe the vietnamese are slightly inflated at highest elos, because of the archer meta, but that doesn’t mean they’re balanced, it just means that at their strongest, they’re able to achieve average results. If they were truly powerful in that niche, they’d be average, their strength in one place balancing their weakness in other areas. But that’s not what we see; instead, at 1900+ they’re currently sitting at 44% win rate with 370 games.
And again, this is an inflated win rate, since pros have higher than average win rates in general. In the 1200+ range, they currently are the absolute bottom civ with a 44.5% win rate.
Translation; even with the win rate inflation, they actually get WORSE at the highest skill levels.
I think we should target the TB. I saw Imp Skirms in TG from time to time, even in tournaments. But a trash unit upgrade in Imperial age (which is even worse than Berbers TB) as a TB is bad design imo due to how the TG is designed with potential infinite gold.
Is basically almost the same vill lead as Vikings free Wheelbarrow, and also you can pick up Horse collar safely before placing any farm ASAP, plus Elite Battle ele upgrade being cheaper to tech into, and Viet battle eles can be worth in 1v1 with Chatras now.
Definitively a good buff for them, but I still want Mayans nerfed though.
They are now the Burgundians of the Archers.
