Honestly and judging from my experience + RBW5 Vietnamese seems fine? They suck against cav civs but do amazingly against archer civs.
Please don’t base balance assessments against tournament results; it is such a low sample size that it is borderline useless. The fact that pros are picking it gives some information as to their feelings towards it but alas its nothing concrete.
My gut feeling (having main’d with them for ages) is that whilst they are good against other archer civs the real advantage doesn’t kick in until imp when you have imp skirms and rattan archers. Before this point most other archer civs have bonus’s that mean they are on par if not better than you (namely Britain extra range and mayan cheaper archers, Korean free armor, Ethiopian firing rate, Tatars free thumb ring).
I am using tournament result as well as my personal experience, not solely one of them but let me explain my experience:
Their archer range unit have +20% unit. That helps verus other archer civs, in following way:
In Fedual, the first ~6 archers are very important (esp. if you go MAA opening.) Having +20% HP means that it takes 8 hits instead of 6 hits (6 vs 5 if no armor upgrade, attack upgrade is assumed) to kill an archer, which means one more volley fire. That makes them trade fairly well with other archer civs given the same number (and micro)
In Castle age, xbows with +20% tanks a mangonel shot, which makes them really great (a LOT more error-forgiving) at defending mangonel siege. Skrims with +20% hp counters other archer civs really well too.
With the new UT you only need 6 elephants to compensate for the expenses, regarding HP.
Thank you your reply, I just give an idea, and just need small bonus. If realy too hard may be other better. I only want small bonus more. 100w how about it can tell me your idea?
Economy not accept for you do it. + rattan realy need frame delay shoot = plum why every thing famous for plum. And like me say rattan is bow man not crossbow man
And I saw it, but 20℅ hp dont left anything after a shoot of mangonel i’m not gainsay they are quite good but not enough . And it not thing use for rattan. I mean rattan delay frame shoot. And rattan till most expensive and they not worthy with it. + small bonus in early it ok. When long time 4 year viet are sick civil.
For the moment i would wait after the PUP changes for two reasons.
The buff to chattras is a late buff… maybe developers want to push vietnamese as an lategame archer civ instead of one focused in early pressure. Also, it is a good buff against civs without halberdiers, some of which are quite prevalent.
Besides, the buff to longswords and supplies seems very good for vietnamese against meso civs. Which are prevalent too (mayans and aztecs)
Thus, vietnamese will perform a bit better against a lot of high-picked civs. Maybe is this the lottle buff you ask for?
Something like making Paper Money also improves market exchange rates.
The Viet Team Bonus is not to shared the Imperial Skirmisher unit itself, they share the upgrade to the Imperial Skirmisher (different from the Condos and the Genis)
I wonder if that is a good Buff to the Viets, (free Imperial Skirmisher upgrade reaching Imperial Age and share the unit as a TB, not the upgrade)
Ive often wondered for the Vietnamese if a good bonus would be free elite skirm. I don’t think any other civ has that. Though it’s possibly overpowered vs archer civs yet pointless against knight civs
The issue is that only makes them stronger where they’re already strong.
Imo (like a number of civs, like Koreans) the issue lies with dark/feudal eco.
So either some kind of general eco buff, or discount to something anti cav specific.
But on a similar note, if laming wasn’t so RNG dependent, and more reliable, Viet should technically do a lot better since they should be laming to leverage their civ advantage, even if it is a negative social experience
True, though I still argue Vietnamese aren’t that special vs other archer civs until imperial. Most archer civs (notable exceptions being Italians and Portuguese) get really strong bonus’s which prevents Vietnamese truly being “anti archer” until late game. I guess my fear with any anti cav bonus is that it makes them too powerful late game.
Edit: thus my logic of free elite skirm allows them to be more anti archer in castle age without changing their current late game balance. Also makes the transition to imp skirm smoother.
They have 20% more HP on archers and skirms, how are they not special against archer civs?
Then, I don’t understand how people can say that vietnamese are weak in dark/feudal age. They have 3 bonuses for dark/feudal, maybe people just don’t use them properly if they have bad winrate but they have tournament usage, expecially the reveal enemy position one.
Please don’t miss understand me, I’m not saying they are bad against other archer civs, I’m saying that because other archer civs have such strong bonuses that they don’t have a distinct advantage over most of them. This is namely the Britain extra range + faster production, Mayan discount, Korean free armour and (debatably) Ethiopian firing rate as well as tatars free thumb ring are all on par with the Vietnamese in castle age. (Even vikings are competitive due to their amazing eco advantage)
I.e. my point is that Vietnamese don’t really live up to the “anti-archer” until imperial when rattens and imp skirms are rolling out.
Uhh… mind reading my comment?
Also free Eskirm is at the same opness at free bodkin arrow, so maybe no?
Ok I didn’t get you meant this.
Yes, you’re right in the sense that they don’t crush archer civs overall, but their advantage is that they can still trade okay-ish versus those civs in ranged vs ranged fight while having overall a more flexible tech tree and a better late game. And I think it’s fine to be like this, if they crush civs like ethiopians or britons on archer wars they would be extremely OP since these civs basically have nothing else except archers.
I agree with both your points, I think my only remarks would be that the advantage in (1) only holds for the first ~8 archers and is thus very short lived, sure pros might be able to leverage and snowball this in theory but the vast vast majority of the player base won’t be able to properly use such a niche short lived advantage. (2) is indeed valid as well but it is general mild-safety net as opposed to having a distinct advantage towards the anti-archer role.
I haven’t done any sums or simulations but I think I agree that free elite skirm is likely to be OP. Perhaps something mid way like 50% off
I think I agree with this.
I guess it’s hard because some people really press that their identity is the “anti-archer” civ which I think isn’t that true for the early - mid game. So you can either buff them to live up to that identity or buff their weaknesses to make them a more all rounded civ.
Personally I prefer the latter and would love to see elephants be made more viable in 1v1s; I know they are being buffed in the most recent PUP but I’m really struggling to see how the extra hp would make any difference in 1v1 whilst halbs (and even pikes) remain as such hard counters.
Remove both of their Unique Techs, they should passively get HP bonus for their Elephants.
I wouldn’t give them an eco bonus though, the urge to give every civ an eco bonus is deeply uninspired, that’s the most easy way to “balance” a civ.
And if you want to gift them with an eco bonus- do it elgantly, wisely, the current eco bonus they have is so sad, it’s not versatile, forces them to just go for a boom to fully utilize their bonus just like Indians or Teutons, rather than have some sort of retroactive small eco lead or an indirect one, something that will encourage aggressiveness or at least non-meta approach.
Imagine instead of wood-free eco techs, an eco bonus like these:
- Getting 5 free vills within building a Castle.
- Skirmishers do triple the damage to vills.
- Conscription Free from Castle Age.
- Destroyed/Deleted Lumberjack gives back it cost.
And you can get much more creative with the potential 2 new unique techs, however developers would less likely to do so. Maximum a change of just one.