I disagree with giving them back thumbring. If anything, they should buff their infantries a bit more. I would make berserker gang affects all infantries and lower cost for chieftain.
With the arbalester and crossbow nerf, it might be worth a try to add thumbring back again. This not only buff archers but cavalry archers for Viking as well, though may not be that useful, could be used in certain situation.
Nahh im fine with that, they now have more reasons to use infantry and the free Wheelbarrow and Hand cart bonus ia now balanced.
Still think they need a nerf on water maps.
Do you think you’ll actually see sword play? Maybe pikes to scare horses but I’m not sure you’ll see a big Longsword salute on your enemy economy.
I mean if it happens cool but I highly doubt it.
Vikings Champion is 2nd best Champion (1st is Aztecs) in the game with 20% hp and +5 vs Cavalry. Real problem underlie militia-line itself. Buff militia-line properly and infantry civs will be used as a infantry civ not archer civ.
On the other hand, Vikings having bad Arbalest violates rules of the game because Stable units are best unit type in the game, thus civs has bad stable like Vikings must have good Archery Range, Barrack, or maybe siege (Vikings has no BBC as well). Some may ask Vikings early eco is one of the best, therefore they deserve to have bad late game. But Aztecs is also best early game civlization in the game and even Aztecs’ late game is better than Vikings. Aztecs has also bad Arbalest but Aztecs has better Skirmisher, Barrack and Eagle Warriors (far better raiding unit than Berserk).
Aztecs champs best ??? If u think +4 attack has more value than slav trample,malian pierce armor or japanese attack speed, then yeah. But I would have malian champskarls every day over aztecs. Wouldnt give vikings #2 too, maybe 4th? MALIANS, SLAVS and japanese would be top3 imo.Japanese 33% attackspeed means you make 4 AA = 68dmg. Aztecs does 3 attacks with the same time and its 63dmg.
+4 attack is better than Japanese 33% attack speed. Attack speed doesn’t effect first hit, thus 33% attack speed correspond approx 25% more damage output. +4 attack against heavy cavalry equals to 33% attack which is better than Japanese’s. With +4 Attack, Aztecs kills villagers in 2 hits.
Slavs trample Champion needs numbers, trample damage isn’t useful in low numbers. On the other hand, Slavs has Halberdier which means better infantry overall but Aztecs is 10 time better early game than Slavs.
Malians Champion isn’t better than Aztecs. +6 attack is better for Champion-Pikeman. I think Malians Champion is overrated.
Malian champ takes 2 dmg from archer while aztec takes 5 dmg, if you think its overrated then GL. Both champs have 70 hp, so 35 archers to 1hit vs 14 archer to 1 hit single champ, 17 hits to kill vikings champ. No wonder people call them champskarls.
Lacking last attack upgrade hurts, it die to Cavalry units. it soak a lot of arrows but it doesn’t kill anything due to no mobility. Champskarl is eventually Sergeant, it is cheaper than Sergeant but it is weaker as well, Sergeant is also below average unit. Hand Cannon is still hard counter, too. Aztecs Pikeman is better than Malians’ btw.
Main topic was problem of Vikings being worst late game civilization in the game. Normally Aztecs and Franks are candidate for this spot but these 2 civs are also better than Vikings. This needs to change, Aztecs in late game is so bad now.
It really depends on what you are fighting. Champions has high base atk. Japanese champion can beat aztecs one and better against infantry. Vikings champion is the most effective in fighting cavalry. Malians tanks arrows. Besides, aztecs one +4 atk requires castle to research.
I agree, it depends, in my opinion, Japanese is best infantry civ due to their bonus not requiring technology. My main point was that Vikings don’t need even stronger Champion. They need thumb ring back and small nerf to their too strong eco bonus. I propose 3 changes.
- Thumb ring is added to tech tree back.
- Eco bonus is turned into Town Center techs are 50% cheaper, 100% faster researched.
- Cost of Castle UTs are significantly reduced.
Only wheelbarrow and hand cart should be included. Maybe half the price, half the speed only or just give them free wheelbarrow and thats it.
Goth already have fast loom etc, dont need 1 more laming civ + 1 extra militia/m@a with more hp, broken.
I will repeat, Vikings don’t need back Thumb Ring, and Vikings need a nerf on Water maps (Reduce team bonus from 15% to 10% cheaper docks, nerf Longboat somehow because is by far the strongest unique warship, either -1 attack or increase the base cost again and training time).
I dont like viking losing thumb ring at the very beginning as this hurt their late game and team game, where vikings is already weak. While compensation is given to their early game.
But losing thumb ring is still fine as long as there is compensation to their late game, like buffing berserk. Make faster healing available as upgraded to elite berserk. And the new UT to buff thier hp/ or mobility slightly.
Their military isnt exceptionally strong and vikings really depends heavily on powerspikes to win. (strong eco for age/tech lead) I worry this may kill vikings.
Absolutely agree to revert back to old price.
i agree but then they need a help in their infantry switch. militia line should get a bit more love as a base unit i would say. like cheaper upgrade for THS and champions, and things like berserkergand and chieftains should be a bit cheaper. maybe without thumb ring and archer nerf, they could even think of adding the halberdier upgrade, and make chieftains only affect militia and berserks
Do Vikings really need buffs right now? they are more then fine both in the tournament scene and on the Ladder if you ask me.
nono they are a strong civ, but i do agree their late game is very boring. you literally have one options: zerks + siege + skirms. not very pleasant… i’m fine with them not having thumb ring as i think it forces them to adapt and make a tech switch whihc is cool, but chieftains and berserkergang are hella expensive.
that sayd, certainly there are other civs to be prioritized over vikings when it come to buffs
yeah, if we’re buffing vikings, theres about 30-35 other civs that need buffs first… They are 11th overall in WR at ALL ELOS, They are top 8 in WR on the ladder right now at 1500+ and it only goes up from there.
How many options do franks , Britons, Koreans have?
At least Vikings are using their UU, and that being infantry on top of that.
Vikings might need looking at, but heck there’s a lot more that needs looking at first
Is it getting more attention because it’s a well known civ? Definitely nothing to do with actual performance.
Well Franks have fu militia, throwing axeman, paladins, BBC…britons have arbalest, longbows, and still FU militia if needed, koreans have amazing siete and discounted FU halbs, FU arbalest, war wagons…sound like more options to me
That sayd, Vikings are not a priority to buff of course