[Vote] Next patch Buffs and Nerfs - DLC 2023

I will take even more time as I was doing with Vietnamese. 11

Arabia?

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Hey, I respect the effort XD

I think people care too much about arabia and that restricts the potential AoE2 has. Arabia has a very rigid meta, and that makes it easy to evaluate civs there. But devs have historically cared about closed maps, and have made balance changes to civs exclusively for closed maps.

Although Arabia is the most popular map, it is played less than 50% of times. Outside of all-arabia tournaments, it is also only one of the many tournament maps. So, that’s the amount of priority it should be given.

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You were given the answer to your question, and then marginalise it’s importance? Life doesn’t work like that.

As usual a lot of projection going around here.

This kind of opinion has been expressed countless times by some vocal minority, before each new civ with new mechanics, and guess what… the game is still ever more popular

The same is happening with Romans. The same happened with sicilians. The same happened way back in the day with the SEA civs…

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Last time I checked, it had 65%+ play rate.

For just 1v1s RMs, yeah. But I’m including team games, quick play games and everything else. I don’t see any good reason to exclude those.

This is my final version for Dravidian changes.

Dravidians:
* [REMOVE "+200 wood bonus"] 
  [Replace] "All Economy techs researched instantly"

* [REMOVE "+15 fish carry"] 
  [Replace] "Age up cost -20% food"

* [OPTIONAL REMOVE "33% Siege wood discount"] 
  [Replace] "Blacksmith and University upgrades for Galley line 50% cheaper"

* [REMOVE "Block Printing"] Replacement: "Redemption"

* [REMOVE "Medical Corps"] 
  [Replace "Strike Corps"] - Elephants and Castle units move +20% faster. 
           Cost 300 food and 300 gold.
          

Dravidians are too different to play as a typical aoe2 civ. They feel like a AOE2.5 fishing wars civ. They get a huge wood bonus when feudal is reached. That’s good for a killer blow on water. But its nominal on land. They have no strong answer to Knight raids in castle age except monks. But Monk tech tree is very poor and lacks redemption and fervor. So that is a lot of resources for one time use. In water as well, they don’t get any meaningful advantages after early feudal age. The fish carry capacity makes vills force drop every once in a while which is too demanding and does not result in the 23% faster collection as per design. In contrast, Japanese get faster working fishing ships which are far tanky. So this bonus maybe a Team bonus. But not a civ bonus. They have no reason to construct a stable. Their raiding potential is non-existent. They need a better design of the urumi.

The civ seems to be a copy-paste of viking in terms of team bonus and costs of techs. They save almost the same amount of wood on their docks. Their unique units cost almost the same. The blacksmith is identical. It seems to be a tweak of Viking civ after duplicating its design. But Dravidians don’t get amazing economy bonus like Vikings. So having a terrible stable hurts Dravidian civ far more than Vikings. The eco bonus that replaces +200 wood bonus will help Dravidian civ mimic Vikings gameplay despite needing to pay for eco upgrades.

The re-work seeks to maintain the current gameplay in dark and feudal. It improves castle and imperial play by giving coping up options to overcome lack of mobility. The fish carry and siege discount replacement bonus is for quicker age up and galley line upgrade techs being 50% cheaper. This bonus makes flaching, bodkin arrow, bracer, Ballistics and chemistry cheaper by 50%. The cheaper attack upgrades in blacksmith allow them to continue pressure in feudal on both land and water. More powerful galley than opponent will help make transition from fire ship to ranged units on water which is preferable. Since fishing bonus is removed, it will be balanced on water. Their absence of Knights make their castle age their Achilles heel. The blacksmith and university bonus helps the player prepare defensively with a TC with extra attack using bodkin arrow and accuracy of ballistics.

These bonuses are less powerful than blacksmith free upgrades to Malay, Magyars and Koreans. But better than Bulgarians discount for making aggressive gameplay possible. Thematically Dravidians are an infantry and Naval civ, the current siege discount does little for their game play according to their theme. The dravidians kingdoms of the cholas, cheras and Pandyas were not land powers. They did not do siege of castles like the Europeans in the great northern European plains. They valued control of costal ports and trading outposts. They did not favor extensive land campaigns. Wars were far shorter and far more intense. So Siege bonus is not appropriate. They did have amazing ships and metallurgy technologies. The blacksmith upgrades discount for only attack techs reinforces the theme of their units being glass cannons. Besides tropical climate regions don’t use armor as much as Europe. Infantry attack upgrades are not included since ‘woots steel’ will make it OP and there are barrack techs to boost infantry attacks. So this bonus combination is a good design. The civilization that invented “wootz steel” lacking blacksmith bonus is incorrect. This change can fix that.

Removing “Medical corps” should have been the first thing to fix the civ, since it does not aid Dravidian gameplay nor it is a historically accurate technology. What Cholas did in reality was they bought technology from China and middle east to make state of the art military. They did buy the finest horses as well. But the civ design uses elephant as their only cavalry. So they need a special ability. Dravidian battle elephants were reared as the best in the world for warfare. They used them extensively during invasion of Sri lanka too. A swift invasion of “Srivijaya” and malay archipelego was possible because of this. These elephants need to have at least one defining offensive unique tech that signifies this.

A castle unique tech buffing elephants and castle units will be a good design. We have " Wagenburg Tactics" which is a balanced technology. We can apply the same effect to Elephants and castle units. This will make Urumi usable as well in their current form with the speed boost. They can be a late game raiding unit. Trebuchet which can equal archer and long swords speed would be a good supporting unit to push defensive buildings like castles and TCs. Armored elephants were nerfed which hurt Dravidian play a lot and they have only normal battle elephants without any elite versions. This technology is essential to make them viable. With this tech and removal of “Medical corps”, Dravidian Ele archers have the speed to run away from skirm fights. But not from halbs. So its balanced.

This is how Dravidian civ bonuses will look after these changes.

Dravidians:

* All Economy techs researched instantly

* Age up cost -20% food

* Barracks technologies cost -50%.

* Skirmishers and Elephant Archers attack 25% faster.

* Blacksmith and University upgrades for Galley line 50% cheaper.

* [REMOVE "Block Printing"] Replacement: "Redemption"

* "Strike Corps - Elephants and Castle units move +20% faster. 
                  Cost 300 food and 300 gold.
          
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These ones are interesting. Your civ bonuses as a whole would improve Dravidians a bit. These changes are well-balanced.

‘Castle units move faster’ is a much better option than Medical Corps. ‘Fast moving Ele Rams’ is also appealing. While +20 faster is not going to make Elephant units cheetahs, Armoured Elephants moving as slow as snails is unfair.

Cheap Barracks techs bonus doesn’t help Dravidians. However, cheap Galley-line techs (associated with Blacksmith and University) would help them when paired with the Barracks bonus.

The current siege bonus, in my view, is biased in favour of 20-30ish minute 1v1 Arabia pro games that are finished in Castle Age. Devs could have replaced “-33% wood” with gold which would affect Ele Rams and Petards as well. But none of these siege bonuses address ‘no knights’ and ‘weakness to Mangonels’.

Ageing and tech’ing up faster is an appreciable solution. And so is receiving less damage from siege units.

There is more room to improve Dravidians. Also do suggest bonuses that specifically affect their mainstream units in Castle Age (and Feudal) - archers, skirms, militias and spears - which is were they are problematic. These units are generic across most Ages.

One of the latest topics on the forum asks to rank the best Militia-line in the game. You will find WootzSteel Dravidians bottom-ranked.

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My child. You were told the answer is Arabia. It is a fact. But your opinion forces you to disregard the answer. If you think that makes me high, that is your own problem.

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You get cheaper mangos for fighting other mangos. It most definitely alleviates the issue.

The same for knights, instead of countering skirms/siege with Knights/eagles (Eg like Brits/Mayans) you can use cheaper siege.

Drav seem to be designed as a more aggressive Aztec like civ with the direction of instant Res, discount tech, wood discount. So it still aligns thematically.

Urumi + rapid fire FU skirms (one of the best in the game) give for a very viable late game low gold option, they don’t necessarily need to save gold.

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Its still RNG and siege needs support. Cheap siege for a fast paced civ or a civ with very good tech tree and eco is solid but for Dravidians its a small support.

Knights do much more than just kill skirms and mangonel vs mangonels is still some RNG and micro dependent while 3 or 4 knights can kill many unguarded or forward mangonels. That bonus can never be a replacement for knights.

Its totally fine if they get a huge eco lead like Vikings, Malay, Malians or Chinese apart from their extra wood. Like if farmers dropped off more food or trickle of food from wood or gold. But Dravidians eco is just average. Your eco advantage is heavily dependent on how much damage you can do with maa and skirms, which still have their limitations.

Urumi is a horrible unit. It was terrible even before but now with Gambesons, its 100% useless. Its much much much better to do champs which have more hp and 6 p.armor instead of units from castle which cost more food and die to skirms. If you go urumis, you’re guaranteed to throw a game even when you have a small advantage.

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Another great set of changes. I’d probably modify Blacksmith and University upgrades for galley line 50% cheaper to a lower value or in some other way. -50% f letching combined with strong early feudal could snowball a lot. Maybe even if that bonus starts from castle age, its good.

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That’s not true. They are situational. But they are like broken in those situations.

It can’t. Even Eagle is not the proper replacement for knights in some cases. But the bonus is something. And Dravidians is doing well on the ladder as per stats.

Those are situations that almost never happen in 1v1. There are even situations where Flaming camel is good but again those situations almost never happen and are impractical.
So yes its situational but the unit is horrible because those situations are too rare.

Its obviously something yes but a lot of people just mentioned that it solves their siege/skirm weakness, that they are balanced now, some even went to the extent of saying they are strong now, which is far from the truth. Eco is still average, lack of mobility still is a huge handicap.

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Vigunsta has an excellent point about the siege bonus not addressing weakness to Knights and mangonels. But the siege wood discount if turned to gold still would not amount to much in 1vs1 games. The discount does not make the siege units themselves better. If Dravidian siege got minus 50% bonus damage from Siege, then Dravidian Mangonel counters other mangonel and Onager can withstand a bombard cannon shot. Then we can say Dravidian siege hard counters other Siege. But currently it is only resource saving trade which is a soft counter. If the civ has amazing eco bonuses, relying on soft counters is sufficient. But Dravidians cannot since all their economy upgrades will have fizzled out when castle age is reached.

What Dravidians need in castle age are common counter units to Knights and Siege. Urumi could have been that option if they had more HP or speed. So Redemption monks will be the better option. This will force the opponent to go archers or monks themselves or light cav. This will buy time for Dravidian player to go archers on the offense or put down more TCs to expand economy.

I agree Dravidians don’t need to save gold since most of their useful units are food intensive not gold intensive. However the Urumi + Skirm composition does not work at all. FU arbs will make short work of urumi. With the 25% higher DPS, elite skirms will have a bigger mass left after battle than other civs. But what will you push with Skirms. Light cav let alone hussars will make quick work of them soon enough.

Agree 100%. The devs did not even bother to update gold cost or give 0/+1 armour. I think the unit needs a heavy re-work. But till then the next patch should have other bonuses.

I understand that letching will make it a high power spike in a M@A to archers play. But There is a con to ageing up earlier. It’ll hurt economy with not enough villagers to go aggressive into military unit production. The free +200 wood is gone too. I had thought it will balance out the tech. Since this bonus is replacing the siege bonus, on some levels it does make sense to have the bonus start from castle age.

Otherwise, we can forego the “Age up” bonus and replace it with the military building discount which was criticized as an OP combo. This will have the advantage of Dravidians playing like a normal civ. But it would necessitate a change to the “Team bonus” on docks since it will stack up with wood discount on the docks. We can move the underwhelming fishing bonus nerfed to +10 as “Team bonus” to restore balance. Please share your thoughts.

They are doing well since people have figured out how to abuse their OP +200 wood bonus in feudal. Please refer the games for arabia 1200+ elo. The 60% winrate in feudal balances the 40% winrate in castle age. The Siege bonus has helped their imp play not castle age. Besides the bonus of +200 wood is just game breaking on water. If water maps were mainstream, that bonus would have been nerfed by now. In team islands, Dravidians are a must pic to end the game early. The civ should be re-worked to play like a normal civ and not like an athlete on androids for a 100 m dash. Dravidian techs should have counters like regular civs to euro-civs like how meso civs manage to matchup with euro-centric civs despite their lack of cavalry and gunpowder.

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Opponent reach Castle Age.
Dravidians = gg.

I disagree. Not every civ has to be “Normal”. They need some changes - BE and Medical Crops. And maybe EA too.

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Medical Corps has been buffed enough so Ele archers.

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More people seem to be realizing it now, after nations cup. Every team who cared about water had Dravidians as their 1st or 2nd pick. I think they were the most sniped civ as well.

That dock gives 5 pop space might seem like 25 wood savings, but it’s more like 40-50 resources. More importantly, though, it’s 40-50 resources for ALL your teammates, which is bonkers. You get 25 wood in terms of a house, which is neat. It saves 25 seconds of vil working and 5-10 seconds of walking time, which is usually somewhere in the ballpark of 15 wood. However, the vil can immediately start fishing, and fishing is way faster than berries or sheep. This is an S-tier team bonus on water maps, and nomad especially.

On the other hand, it is complete garbage on non-water maps. So there’s that I guess.

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These stats are quite elaborative, can you refer the site you used to get these? Also, for everyone saying they are doing fine - look at the abysmal play rate 1.0 to 1.6% across all patches and declining after the hotfix.

I think what @GentleEvening5 means by “normal” is that they need to be competent in general despite the lack of cavalry. BE, Medical corps or EA isn’t going to address any of their concerns ever. Slow, insta converted, low value for their cost. If you change one or more of these, TG balance will get affected. To make these feasible, the game has to be changed a lot. The rate at which food is collected from farms and herdables, amount of free gaia food in standard maps, collection rate of gold, creation time of monks, cost efficiency of cavalry units in early castle age. Those are just too many complex changes, unlikely to happen. Most practical way to balance is rework Dravidian economic bonuses to be more long lasting while not OP on water or rush situations. That way they get the lead like Vikings, Malay and meso civs and can make use of it to get much far ahead before cavalry raids become a problem.

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This should be reworked.

There is room for some change for them too.

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Yes!
And if Dravidian land units (except their siege units) take negative damage from enemy siege units something like the recent Ethiopian Royal Heirs rework, the current siege bonus wouldn’t be required.

I can’t stress this enough.

20 CHARS

  • This view is pretty one-dimensional.

To make it work the way you said,
A. Dravidians need their Mangonels to show up at the scene like magic after they sight enemy Mangonels in Castle – which can happen in Age of Mythology not AOE2, or

B. Dravidians have to create Mangonels (anticipating to sight enemy Mangonels somewhere) but drag their Mangs all along with their slow infantry everywhere – in which case the enemy can equip their own Mangs with scout’able, raid’able and flee’able Knights/Eagles.

  • Problem is, Dravidian Mangonels are good mostly in Mangonel vs Mangonel fights. In case of composite armies, Dravidian Mangonel + infantry/archer combo is inferior to enemy Mangonel + knight combo, where the latter can micro better. Enemy’s mobility is a concern to Dravidians.
  • The simple ‘Stone cuts scissor; scissor cuts paper; and paper wraps up rocks’ logic doesn’t work here because knights and eagles can scout and run/dodge faster than infantry.

@Pulikesi25 has made a good point.

Eagles and Knights offer much more than that.

  • Eagles/knights - run, dodge and scout, and get killed by their anti-counters (infantry/archer)

  • Infantry – can’t run, dodge and scout, but get killed by their anti-counters (militia/archer)

If only Devs can understand this.

Meso civs save 175 wood on stables to produce their knight-replacement from Barracks. If Incas are teamed up with Dravidians and Slavs, their wood savings is OP since they already have a civ bonus related to houses/pop.

No!
Medical Corps hasn’t been buffed to an appreciable level. So, Ele Archers are the same even after the latest patch.

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