Possible change:
Mahout’s speed bonus is free in the Castle Age
Elite upgrade -400F and -40seconds research time
Elite upgrade gives 50 hitpoints instead of 150
Mahout gives 100 hitpoints (same cost)
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people can make 3 knights in castle. Even double stable constant knight production…
If Castle-age WE were better than 3 knights they might be OP. If they were better than 10 knights they would certainly be OP.
Why can’t there be a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where Castle WE are neigher UP nor OP? Where a Persian player who’s pumping out knights and already has a castle can decide to mix in a few WE?
Edit just to clarify I’m talking specifically about WE, not FU EWE.
Put one War Elephant against any other unit, other than a Monk, and the War Elephant wins.
Your words, not mine.
I think the problem is monks, knights can escape monks and run away from bad fights. The lack of mobility will always hurt in castle age where eco and military is in smaller numbers. Same for longsword IMO
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This shows that you clearly didn’t understand what I said. And using my comments - that are for two very different meaning statements - on one and only one statement is definitely not a good behaviour, and won’t bring us anywhere closer to an agreement. It is neither a constructive feedback.
My whole point is - trying to explain it more understandable - that you just can’t make the war elephant balanced in normal and post imperial games at the same time. Currently it is balanced in post imp games, and obviosly weak in random map games like intended. If you give a small speed buff - that would both earn nothing and would make them ridicolously op - just like I said, but in different settings. If you want it viable in normal games that means it should be way beyond overpowered in post imp games. Given that it is a population efficient unit, and that it is much better have a very weak rather than a very overpowered unit in a gamemode, war elephants are in a perfect place currently.
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Because no matter what, WE also come out of a gigantic sack of stone. Basically the plan with WE in castle age is to wait for your villagers to get that sack stone, make a castle out of it, then mass a slow_ass unit out of it, while your enemy goes undisturbed. For this plan to stop being as bad as it sounds, you would need to give them some stupid OP stats that would break the lategame (yeah, even if the FU ele is left untouched, as buffed normal ele= less need to buy elite). So if this sweetspot exist, it’s way harder to find it than accepting that not every civ needs to beeline to a castle into UU spam.
OH yeah, let’s add some manichaeism cuz why not
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Learning something new everyday 
thanks
They are just underpowered, and waiting for a buff since AGE OF KINGS.
If you look back at AoK it wasn’t bad at all for WE. They have so much HP that they are the least impacted cav by the lack of bloodlines, there weren’t halbs and I don’t think that 1999 internet connection would support the best monk micro. Given how the game has evolved (hello Rise of rajas!) “cheapening” the war ele to make it an “everyday” unit would spoil it, as it would make it look more like a BE rather than the super-concentrate pack of stats than this thing actually is.
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The only problem with War Elephants is their overwhelming weakness to monks. It’s pointless to put so many resources into a single unit when the enemy can convert it with a much cheaper unit in the same time it takes to convert any unit.
If you want to see more war elephants, they need some sort of monk resistance. Personally, I’d rather have seen a cheap unique tech that makes monks convert a random unit rather than whatever they’re targeting. That way, Persians could safely incorporate war elephants into their army much earlier.
Introduction of Halbs in AoC made them one of the worst UU, completely impractical.
So they got nerfed big time.
Huge nerf when they were already known to be underpowered, infeasible and below subpar.
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I see quite a lot of problems with this.
1.I assume it would benefit all Persian units. So why wouldn’t the player use it to help their knights?
2. It erases whatever control the enemy has other their monks, which doesn’t do justice to their efforts to micro and might take away enjoyment from them
3. Combine the above two points and you would end up with walls of skirms wasting conversions aimed at Persian knights.
The introduction of halbs was definitely aimed at heavy cavalry and war eles (Else they wouldn’t have given halbs the bonuses they got) You can deem it an overbuff for pikes, but it’s still not preventing eles from winnin g when they are played right. It doesn’t happen everyday but it’s what make them special.
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the war elephants aren’t under-powered, you just don’t like the way the unit is designed and where its power lies at.
if we make the war elephant stronger before post it, it would be beyond broken in post imp.
so since you are the one who wants to make the unit stronger, please tell us how you would make it stronger before late imp, without affecting its post imperial power.
and the halb was added BECAUSE of how strong the War Elephant and the Paladin was.
uh clearly not, War Elephants laughed at pikeman in AoK. there is a reason the Halb was added.
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and how were they nerfed? did they target the cost of the unit? no. the direct damage? no. they targeted what makes them so cost efficient, their trample damage and ability to be very supply efficiency.
they win because they can outnumber their opponents, which is only possible through increased production. they lose straight up 1v1 fights for most their units.
their spear line loses to other civs spear lines.
their champion line loses to other civs champion line.
huskarls literally lose to hussars for the love of god.
so how do they win? by making sure their isn’t 1v1 fights.
uh no. a 20 vs 20 fight would end with 20 goth units dead because they lack the final armor upgrade.
they still wouldn’t see use in the castle age due to the 200 food cost.
except you are not factoring in population efficiency. 1 war elephant is more population efficient then 1 knight against anything that isn’t a monk
tell me how you buff them before late imp without breaking them in late imp.
let me ask you this. if war elephants were UP in Age of Kings, why was a unit added to the game that is even better against them in age of conquerors?
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Funnily enough I only just realised the potential problem with the proposal, which is that non-Elite WE might become too good in Imp. That’s why I included an upgrade-cost re-balance in here. That aside:
| old stats | |
|---|---|
| hp | 450 (600) |
| attack | 15 (20) |
| attack bonus | 7 (10) |
| br | 0.5 |
| rof | 2.0 |
| ma | 1 |
| pa | 2 (3) |
| speed | 0.6 |
| upgrade cost | 1600 food, 1200 gold |
| mahouts cost | 300 food, 300 gold |
| new stats | |
|---|---|
| hp | 500 (600) |
| attack | 17 (20) |
| attack bonus | 7 (10) |
| br | 0.5 |
| rof | 2.0 |
| ma | 1 |
| pa | 2 (3) |
| speed | 0.6 |
| upgrade cost | 1300 food, 900 gold |
| mahouts cost | 600 food, 600 gold |
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You really think the main reason other civs can’t match the production of the Goths is production speed? It’s the cost, c’mon bro.
Your ele point is illogical. Any nerf to damage (trample or otherwise) makes them less cost efficient.
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this does nothing to change the fact that they still lose to monks easily and the huge food cost.
those are the two problems they have in castle age.
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if its just the discount how come they weren’t OP back in Age of Kings
and yet what did they nerf? the direct damage or the part that makes them insanely population efficient?
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Dude, nothing you say has any logic, you ignore good arguments and repeat the same stupid stuff over and over, not gonna waste my time with you anymore.
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this coming from the guy who flat out refuses to acknowledge that what they targeted to nerf was what makes the unit so population efficient. they could have nerfed anything to target its cost efficiency (cost, direct damage, speed), but they targeted exactly what makes the unit good POPULATION WISE (trample damage).
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