What about an imperial camel armor class?

The topic is the Indian fix. The majority of the community does not like the last armor nerf, since it dooms the Indians in 1v1.

What do you think about an imperial camel armor class?

Some ideas:

  • knight line (or cavalry in general) may have an attack bonus vs this armor class. The goal is to make the fight between paladins and imperial camels more balanced in TGs
  • Indians can get back their armor techs and their old bonus for camels. Even +1/1 armor.

As a consequence, the imperial camel would act similarly to other good camels vs paladins in TGs (if the bonus vs the new armor class is large, Indians can be further nerfed in tg), while it may act as a cavalry replacement vs everything else. +0/1 or +1/1 armor with full blacksmith was indeed a problem vs paladins in TGs, but it was not an issue at all vs, say, eagles or archers in 1v1.

To me, giving a unit a unique armour class seems extremely inelegant. And doing so is just giving up on balancing a unit properly.
Just look at the Mameluke armour class :face_vomiting:

If you were to give imp Camel it’s own armour class, the most elegant way I can see if doing it would be to give them +X melee armour, and give cavalry +X bonus damage Vs ImpCamel.

Besides, the problem in team games isn’t that ImpCamels are too strong, it’s that Indians have insane economy and good castle age options, combined with imp camel. If Malians or Saracens had imp camel (instead of their UT) there wouldn’t be an issue.

I think nerfing their eco and buffing their other military options is the way to go, and there isn’t any need to revert last patch’s nerf. (They don’t need Plate Barding armour back)

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Just give Indians their Plate Barding Armour back, sice they were never strong except in TGs, and TGs are not balanced by default.


I personally think that all Indians problems have originated from a big fundamental design flaw (not meaning any offense to who design the civ, but it does have some problems from the beginning…).

The Indians completely lack a unit line, which is the knight. Now there are other civs that completely lack unit lines before the Indians, and those are the meso civ, so let’s look at how the resolved this.

The meso civ completely lack any cav unit, to complement that, they gave them similar unit that can fill the cav spot, but that also change the gameplay enough to feel the difference. This was made either in the form of a regional unit (like the eagles that substitute melee cav) or in the for of an UU (like the plumes that substitute the lack of CA).

Now this was relatively easy to do, because this new unit won’t break the balance of other standard units, but it would just fill a vacant spot, and without being tied to the old unit, there was the possibility to really build them from zero, and balance it as it would better fit the civ.

Now what was instead done with the Indians? The Indians lack only the knight, still this was a big problem since it’s one of the 2 most commonly seen units.

So instead of giving them a units that fill that spot, they buffed a standard unit that already filled another spot, and this without removing what make them good on that job (its anti Cav properties).

So they gave to the camel some of the knight properties, like more PA, more HP and atk (from the IC upgrade) and a better atk vs buildings. But all of that without adjusting its anti cav bonus.

This had the consequence of giving birth to an hybrid unit with a degree of resistance to range attacks and and further strengthen anti cav role, given by the knight-originated buff (more HP and atk help in every direction).

So an OP unit too versitile and further strong at what already excel at, but that at the same time doesn’t really substitute the knight (otherwise it would be a paladin with an anti cav atk).

You see how a simply flaw design originated 3 different problems. On top of that their UU is useless, but not useless for its stats and cost (well, that too, but it’s another problem) but useless because it does nothing to supplement into this void that Indians have. The cherry on the top is that Indians also lack the arbs, the last upgrade to the other most used unit line, meaning that they can’t go for knights and neither for fully xbows into arbs.

So, to conclude, I think that there isn’t any simple solution to the Indians problems, if not through an deep re-design of the civ in general.

Instead of buffing so much their camels, they could have given them just a small buff (like for example +1PA alone without the IC, or nerfing the IC itself) and they could have given them a cavalry castle UU that can actually fill the void of the knight line, or given them a different regional unit, like meso civs have the eagles.

Either way, This would require a lot of other complementary changes to their bonuses and tech tree that would basically redesign the civ from the scratch.


Yes, exactly. I do not like the mameluke armor class, but it may work to have a unit performing properly vs knights (as regular camels) and better than regular camels vs everything else.

That is what the majority of us would like to see. Even the +1/1 armor bonus. My proposal was specifically for TGs. +1/1 (or +0/1) IC is not OP in 1v1.

The armor class would work to make the fight more balanced specifically for team games, but it is something on top of your proposal, which is necessary ofc.

I am saying to do what you propose, plus the armor class.

Basically the idea of armor class could mitigate its anti cavalry role. So it would act as a regular camel vs paladins, while being a viable knight replacement vs everything else.

Now, if I understood it correctly, you meant to give them back plate boarding armor and the +1PA, and balance that by giving a bonus damage to the paladins vs the IC?

Well, that’s simply avoidable by the players that they simply won’t research IC. They would still have more PA and a bonus damage vs buildings, and they’ll be perfectly capable of killing paladins. Then after they killed the enemy paladins army, they would research IC while diving in into the enemy city, and you won’t be able to stop them with building, archers or cav (because they’ll most likely have overwhelming numbers).

I’m sorry, but in my opinion, there is no simple solution to the Indians problem. Simply, the knight and camel roles cannot are irreconcilable, they are too different units and cannot be put into a single unit.

All that without considering all the other problems of the Indians, like the EA, the useless fish bonus, the lack of the arb and knight together, the strong vill discount, those things simply don’t work together…

The reasion why Indians are struggling in 1v1, is lack of FU Hussar.
Hussar without Plate Barding means dead Stables for Indians, even if they had Knight and Cavalier.

No, FU Hussar, no Arbalest, no FU Halbs… Indians have been overnerfed while they used to be fine before.
They got weaker units because they were a Boom civ, so deepended on Cav Archers + Hussar + Imp Camel in the lategame, which was actually a cool army composition.

Without Plate Barding, their Stables units are dead in Imp, specially against non-Cavalry civs, and it is not like they have AMAZING Archers or Infantry (Inf is actually weak) to compensate.

All they need, is Plate Barding back.


The armor is definitely needed, but then TG player will complain again. The game should be balance for both TGs and 1v1. Still I agree that upgrade should be restored.

If you do not research that upgrade, you are wasting a huge advantage. I am not sure about this, but a +1/1 heavy camels will not be much stronger than saracens or malians…

What’s the point of giving knights bonuses against camels? Camels are supposed to be a counter, it should not be a balance fight


Yes, it’s extremely counter intuitive. And as was said above, if only imperial camels have their unique armor class people wouldn’t research it and keep with the heavy camel until the cav menace is gone.

@JonOli12 has good points, but I’d rather seize this balance inestability with indians to take on the redesign of the civ that many of us want.

Redesigning the civ will make it even more unstable, perhaps to the point in which it could not finish it’s own campaign.

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The point is that the IC should perform similar to regular camels vs paladins (winning with less resources). The problem is that, to make the IC a knight replacement, the fight ICs vs paladins is a massacre.

The ideal thing would be to have both, a good kight replacement and a unit which does not dominate TGs completely. The armor class may help…

I have a good idea. Remove “Indians” from the game and replace them with Rajputs. This would fix this Indian civ for once and for all.

  1. Remove Imperial Camel from the game
  2. Remove “Camel-line and Scout-line +1/2 pierce armor in Castle/Imperial Age”
  3. Give Indians Plate Barding Armor, Cavaliers and Elite Battle Elephants
  4. Give Indians a new bonus: Elephants and Camels are created 20% faster
  5. Shatagni should give +10% accuracy besides the extra range
  6. If it’s “radically broken and OP” reduce the villager bonus.
  7. They should be a “Cavalry and Gunpowder civilization”

This would fix the mess devs have given to them since 2013.


How do you balance a mode that has infinite gold through trade?

As for the camels, maybe give IC all what dev wanted camel to be, so the regular camels are not affected. Devs can’t really change camel stats without affecting other civs.


You know what would help? Bring back the heated shots meme and let camel take bonus damage from defensive buildings again. If you think about it, none of the counter units in the game deals decent damage against buildings. Yes, that would be a huge nerf to Indians, but then they would rely more on siege and other stuff to take down buildings instead of spamming camels.

This would actually hurt all Camel civs quite a bit too much, since Camels are the best counter to strong Cavalry Archer units like the Mangudai, and if they start taking extra damage from buildngs, then the Meta will officially become Mangudai/Kipchak/War Wagon under Castle pushes, and Cav Archer UUs will have to be substantially nerfed as a result of the domino effect.

I honestly think it is far more reasonable to just give Indians their PlateBarding back, and let Imp Camels be, since they are not an issue in 1v1.

Heck, you can beat all Indians army with Halb + ESkirm! It is not like Indians have great Infantry or Siege.

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As I’ve mentioned in other threads part of the issue lies with the camel itself. Specifically the castle age camel. India needs better options before their only strong unit is nerfed.

It is a defensive counter unit that can be beaten by the only unit it is designed to counter (teuton knights can beat Indian camels) while not being able to do anything else and costing a huge chunk of gold. LC/hussar match /beat it for dps depending on civ. Other counter units either don’t cost gold or can fill multi rolls (eg siege)

But the main issue is its roll is too specific. In a game which revolves around knights and archers, you basically have to compensate for removal of those meta units. (eg saracens have amazing siege archers, effectively gaining a far superior bonus than indian camels)

the Indians don’t have anything for their xbows and they completely lack the knight, meso eagles fill the role.

I reckon if the camel was made slightly better as a generalist unit it would encourage using Indians. And then you could nerf the imp camel.

But atm the civ is too niche.

Yet again. The same reasoning behind buffing gunpowder… Instead of farting around with civ bonuses fixing the bleeding units.

Militia line for goths and mali.
Gunpowder for turks, Spanish, italians and india
Thus also camels for india.


It is also worth noting that all 3 American civs have Arbalest with Bracer. Clearly the devs know that this game is about Archers and Knights at core.


But then wouldn’t be easier to simply have the IC upgrade decrease the camels bonus vs cav by 2? I mean, the IC upgrade in the end just add:

  • 20HP
  • 2 atk
  • minus 2 sec of TT

The last one should be the fist to go, since it’s really not necessary. And that’s a simple nerf that could be implemented right away without thinking too much.

Then, if the IC would have 16 instead of 18 bonus damage, will end up dealing the same amount of damage vs cavalry, while at the same time having a higher base damage vs other units.

Yes, they would still have 20HP more, but hey they need to be a bit better that regular camels. Also, as I already said, it’s not the IC per sé that it’s the problem of the Indian camels (and of the Indians in general).

See, that’s is the problem in my opinion, it’s simply cannot work that way.

It would be like if instead of giving the eagles to the meso civs they would have give an upgrade to the champs that would give them some qualities of the knight line.

This would have further strengthen the champ vs what it was already strong against, and at the same time it would have failed at covering the missing knight.

The role of the camel and the role of knight are simply incompatible into one unit.

The IC itself wasn’t the problem, it melted paladins civs yes, but most camels do that. The problem was that at the same time was more difficult to counter with archers and can demolish buildings.

The simple fact that it covers multiple spot, means that it’s either super strong, or useless, there is mo middle ground.

If they would be FU, it would be enough to melt cav, and at the same time they would be more resistant to archers.

Also, you would just delay the IC, once you have the numbers, it matters little a small bonus vs you unit if you have a big one yourself.

Yeah but if the problems are at the core of the civ what do you do?

Onestly, at this point I’m reconsidering to give them BE, as they are now, even if I was always against that and even if I’m not sure that it’ll fix them.

Also, maybe it would be the time that we get a more historically accurate Indian civ.

So, researching an upgrade decreases camel bonus damage? Player might better not researching that tech.
It would be better for Indians to have a castle UU that fulfils the role of knight somewhat with good TT. Idk. Change elephant archer into something similar to Mameluke but with lower base atk (7/9 for elite) and high food cost while giving them 4 range. That way, they will stay at the front while allowing xbow to shoot.

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