What are the worst designed Civs in your opinion? (You can select five anwsers)

People in this thread have commented on several flaws or unbalanced features of civs that are valid and perhaps could be addressed. Of course, personal preference also plays a role. However, none of what is being discussed here really qualifies as ‘bad design’ imo. What I would interpret as bad design is a civ that simply does not work properly. This means it either never wins or always wins. Looking at such helpful sites as aoe2stats, not a single civ has a winrate that would qualify as broken (either below 20% or above 80%, for example). If anything, most winrates straddle the 50% line, showing how marvelously well-designed AOE2 as a game really is, especially with so many civs. Not a single one can dominate everything, although on certain maps some civs work out better than others. Even civs with lower winrates are still not so ‘poorly’ designed that a good player can’t make them work.

TL;DR - Poor design =/= Unbalanced design. If all civs were equally balanced they’d basically be the same civ and that would be horrible. I don’t like certain bonuses either, but none are breaking the game or the civ too horribly.

Nevertheless, if I have to point out one civ I think works least, Cumans as a Civ make little sense to me. The only eco-bonus available to them is the two-TC play that you can use to get ahead your opponent, but with pressure or FC can be neutralized. Cumans don’t excel in early game if they go for a boom, but they also don’t excel in late-game due to missing bracer (making their ranged units, including Kipchak, rather underpowered). This means that Cumans using their eco-bonus seem to me to be only really able to push in Castle Age, before dropping off in imp - and clearly, looking at the winrate, most civs can handle what the Cumans throw at them. Perhaps Cumans should get bracer but the dps output of the kipchak slightly reduced.

People saying Goths are poorly designed, to me, are attempting to force Goths into the model of ‘well-balanced’ civs, which Goths simply aren’t. The Goths were never intended to be well-balanced but rather a civ that is just particularly good at one thing. The problem with balancing out the Goths is that this would make them too overpowered, because it would make it too easy to get to the spam. If you then reduce the effectiveness of the spam, what are you then left with? A spam civ that can get to a spam but it’s too weak to smash the opponent, like it does currently. The spam is indeed overpowered but it’s the task of the opponent to prevent the Goth player from getting there, and the latter is not an easy feat. In my opinion, that might be unbalanced, but not ‘poor’ design. If it were ‘poor’ design, the Civ would never win or always win.

Nor is Lithuanians broken. Yes, 4-relic paladins are OP, but they still die to enough halbs, and an opponent should also try to deny the Lithuanian player relics, like you would when playing against Aztecs. The 150-food bonus does give the Lithuanian player a lot of flexibility, but clearly this hasn’t translated into a 100% win-rate; so I don’t see it as particularly game-breaking.

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Do you propose your own badly designed civs ?

I mean you pretty much say, that the most unbalanced civs are the worstly designed… But for me that doesnt make sense. Because a civ can have bad designs which make them too bad or too good that balance itself out to a decent winrate… If one leg is freezing, the other burning, you are not in a good state. For design decisions, you look beyond mere stats and look at in-game strategies and civ mechanics.

And thats what design is about, questioning the intent. Just because it was intended doesnt make the civ suddenly well-designed. No, design is about this idea of having a one-trick pony infantry civ, that doesnt work, isnt fun and is one of the most changed civ in history of aoe2 as a consequence of this bad idea.

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But are they even good with infantry?
You have a good drush and then no especially good options until Imperial.
Once you’re there, your one good thing isn’t even that good because everyone can see it coming and it’s easily countered.

16 civs in the game have access to fully upgraded champion. +1 For Bagains Bulgarian two handed swordsmen. +5 if you count civs that don’t have supplies or squires.
22 civs can create a unit that 1v1 can counter Goth infantry.
The civs that don’t have good champions can likely create either heavy scorpion and/or hand cannoneers to supplement their weaker infantry.
Of course many civs with good champs have access to those too, making it even easier for them to counter Goths.
If it’s Post-Imp and you’re Vietnamese or Mayans, then yeah you could be in trouble.
But the next issue is that because of your below average midgame units and bad eco, you are going to even struggle to get to that Imperial Goth flood.
Many civs are going to be very well prepared for your flood due to how slow you are to get to Imp and you can be put in situations where the opponent can outproduce you, despite your fast unit creation time.
Also, once you and your opponent hit the pop limit, your creation speed boost isn’t helping you out as much and individual unit quality matters more, which is something Goths don’t have.
And it’s not like you have any good options other than infantry in Imperial anyway, so you have no way to mix up your opponent.

I like infantry civs and really enjoy playing them, so I don’t have anything against infantry when I say Goths are a terrible civ.
With civ like Franks, everyone knows you’re going for knights.
But their knights are top tier, so it makes them still a challenge to fight even though it’s so obvious what they’re making.
Goth infantry is just as predictable but also lower quality than most of the civs, making it easy for the majority of civs to counter.
Bad eco, lack of options and not even good at the thing you’re specialised for.
I think they’re the worst civ in the game.

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Whaddabout Arena ? Isn’t it quite a popular map ?

Cumans can pull the feudal boom here without problems, but their late game army is quite weak to halb and siege onager one

They don’t really have good lategame for Arena. Yes they have SO and that’s nice, but otherwise there are plenty of better options

From a historical perspective.

Vietnamese and Koreans do not reflect their civilisation at all. Vikings, Celts, Slavs and Indians all have very limited historical basis.

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indians would be the worst civi design.how can camels cover for knights?

you could say the same of all the meso civs, Indians, and quite a few unique units and other civs as well. but the game has never claimed to be historically accurate. influenced? absolutely.

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I did not know about this mod. Thanks for the info. Glad to see I’m not the only one gallowglasses fan.

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But some of its ahistorical influences made them horribly imbalanced like free Handcart and Wheelbarrow for Vikings.

In terms of pure civ concept, Huns are clearly not fitted as a nomad civ. Central European architecture don’t fit with the nomad hun style. Plus, wtf are paladins doing in their tech tree? Just put something else as a unique unit to balance the lack of paladins but palas just don’t fit with the civ.

It has already been said, but Vietnamese lack a lot of things, especially with their castle techs.

Sicilians just miss thumb ring to be OK imo but the civ design is clearly odd…

Saracens… I would’ve like this civ if it was not as generic as they feel. They clearly lack some identity.

And last but maybe not least (let’s hope it is…), Burmese. A civ that could be really unique, especially with arambais. But the fact that they have bonuses on infantry, cavalry (especially elephants) and monks makes this civ something of a soup mixed with some ingredients that you bought compulsively at the market in the morning. Feels kinda sad.

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Some civs, at least feel like they represent their nations a little better. The byzantines feel nice to play,.

I can not speak on Meso civs, my history of the americas is not very good outside of european settlement of the regions.

Although on thinking further, vikings must be the worst designed civilisation of the game. Naming a whole civilization after a profession, is absolutely stupid. Its like having the Polish civilization being called “Plumbers”

In British English at least, using ‘Vikings’ in this way is correct (i.e. standard/common usage). For example, here’s a BBC News article that does it, here’s an academic paper that uses ‘Vikings’ and ‘Norse’ interchangeably. It’s particularly common in the context of Viking settlement, Viking raids/attacks, and Viking ships. So given that building settlements, fighting, and sailing are the main things that one actually does in AoE2, to a British English speaker ‘Vikings’ is a totally sensible term to use. (And it feels much more natural than the obvious alternative, ‘Norse’.)

On the other hand, perhaps this isn’t true in other forms of English, e.g. American English. I notice that the Wikipedia page on Vikings says “In some of the countries they raided and settled in… the term “Viking” also commonly includes the inhabitants of the Scandinavian homelands as a collective whole”. Presumably that means that isn’t true in countries they didn’t raid or settle in.

Thats completely wrong and anachronistic, during the time, there are no records of the “Northmen” being called vikings by the English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh or Rus. As the word it self is a Old Norse loan-word and took time to be adopted into the Anglo-saxon lexicon. In the time frame of the norse conquest by Vikings, they were referred to by the english as, Northmen or Danes, and wicing, ment pirates, not a nationality.

“The word Viking was introduced into Modern English during the 18th-century Viking revival, at which point it acquired romanticised heroic overtones of barbarian.”

  • Stafford, P. (2009). A companion to the Early Middle Ages. Wiley/Blackwell Publisher, chapter 13.

" The Anglo-Saxons regarded the word wicing as synonymous with pirate and in several Old English sources wicing is translated into the Latin pirata . It was not seen as a reference to nationality, with other terms such as Norðmenn (Northmen) and Dene (Danes) being used for that."

  • Hødnebø, Finn (1987). Who were the first vikings? Proceedings of the Tenth Viking Congress, Larkollen, Norway 1985. Oslo: Universitetets oldsaksamling, UiO. p. 43. ISBN 8271810626.

" As an adjective, the word is used to refer to ideas, phenomena, or artefacts connected with those people and their cultural life, producing expressions like Viking age , Viking culture , Viking art , Viking religion , Viking ship and so on"

" In Old English, the word wicing appears first in the Anglo-Saxon poem, Widsith, which probably dates from the 9th century. In Old English, and in the history of the archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen written by Adam of Bremen in about 1070, the term generally referred to Scandinavian pirates or raiders, The word does not occur in any preserved Middle English texts."

  • Sauer, Hans (2008). “How Anglo-Saxon Glossators Adapted Latin words and their world”. The Journal of Medieval Latin . 18 : 437–468. doi:10.1484/J.JML.3.26. JSTOR 45020116

" In Asser’s Life of Alfred the Danes are referred to as pagani (pagans), but this is usually translated as ‘Vikings’, in modern English, which is commonly regard as a mistranslation."

  • Frantzen. Anglo-Saxon keywords. p 275

The BBC, is definitely wrong 100% wrong in its usage and not at all a scientific source, it is written by people with no degree. Same with your scientific paper, using incorrect terms, doesn’t become correct because it is published in a journal. Coming from England is highly anglo-centric, not exactly concerned with being correct or using correct terms, the terms are anachronistic, and were not used until 19th-20th century English. The wrong term is propagated, because to a modern reader “Viking” draws more attention than “Northmen” or “Danes” Therefore I feel my point stands completely.

Thanks for reading.

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Sure, but the game is in modern English. You’re getting mixed up between a word’s meaning and its etymology. It doesn’t matter what ‘Viking’ meant in the past, only what it means now.

And who decides what “it means” now?

I know it isn’t so accurate. But most people aren’t too concerned about being super accurate, and would rather just have an easily recognized name. Of course, someone could even bring up the argument that the game is just inspired by history, and they can technically do whatever they like. To answer your question though, I think the devs decided it, or at least the devs 20 years ago did, when the game came out.

Nobody “decides” what it means now, that isn’t how languages work.

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This poll is a good idea but people don’t know if you talk about game play or historical point of view…